General Category > Lisa Troubleshooting and Repair
Apple Lisa 2/10 starting up with Profile only; red light stays on
mactjaap:
Thank you very much for these answers. Even if we don't solve this completely I have learned a lot more!
Like, that if you install LOS with the ProFile connected to the lower parallel port, you cannot switch to the upper port with reinstalling the OS (error 10741)
To answer some questions.
@rayarachelian
>So to clarify something, I know you said you have a Widget in that 2/10 that's marginal. Is that external profile hooked up to a Dual Parallel Port?
Yes, it is hooked on an external parallel port. Connected in Slot 1 ( if you look at the back of the Lisa, far left). I use the lower port on the card.
About this:
>What I do see in your video is that the ProFile does its normal power on test which preens the surface for bad blocks. And then you turn on the Lisa.
Maybe I don't understand what this is:
"...the ProFile does its normal power on test which preens the surface for bad blocks."
As what I see the ProFile doesn't do its normal routine. If I turn the Profile on (with the cable connected and the Lisa OFF)... it will only turn on it ready light. It will never do its 'stepping motor stuff' with a flashing led. It will not do anything else. Therefore .. after a while I turn on the Lisa. Only then the Profile will do its test, but stops when the 'boot from' screen appears. If you then wait for a minute or so it will start testing and successfully give the red ready light.
About this:
>So what I suspect, and I'm likely wrong is that when you power the Lisa on, the RESET signal from the CPU is sent to the expansion slot, which is reflected by the CRES (Controller Reset) signal on the parallel ports - this resets the ProFile and then it goes through it's self test. If that's what's happening, that's likely normal behavior.
Yes, that sound exactly what I see! I switch on the Lisa, Profile red light will go off and the stepper motor begins.
About this:
>If you want to test this immediately, you could go into service mode and write a small program to just execute RESET and RTS
Very nice! I understand correct that I can enter the code listing direct in service mode? This question because I don't know to write a program for Lisa. Would be nice to learn. Absolute, but I'm afraid that will be hard for me.
@stepleton
Thanks for clarifying that there will be no difference in behaviour with Lisa 1, a 2, or a 2/10.
I will test the parallel card in a different slot. If it works properly I will get the error 10741 again
@rayarachelian + @stepleton
I will do you proposed test this weekend and will get back with the results in this post.
compu_85:
I notice the same thing on my 2/10, when hooking a Profile up to a parallel card. The self test on the Widget takes long enough that the profile is ready by the time the OS starts to boot. If I want to boot from the Profile I just hit the spacebar and wait.
I am using a cable with all 25 pins.
rayarachelian:
--- Quote from: mactjaap on February 12, 2021, 08:15:30 am ---Maybe I don't understand what this is:
"...the ProFile does its normal power on test which preens the surface for bad blocks."
As what I see the ProFile doesn't do its normal routine. If I turn the Profile on (with the cable connected and the Lisa OFF)... it will only turn on it ready light. It will never do its 'stepping motor stuff' with a flashing led. It will not do anything else. Therefore .. after a while I turn on the Lisa. Only then the Profile will do its test, but stops when the 'boot from' screen appears. If you then wait for a minute or so it will start testing and successfully give the red ready light.
--- End quote ---
So, what I'm saying is that when you power on the ProFile drive, it goes through it's self test of reading from the surface of the disk to test for bad blocks to spare. This is its normal behavior at power on.
By the time you're ready to turn on the Lisa, the ProFile has finished this step.
However, when you turn the Lisa on, this sends a RESET signal for something like 100ms from the power on circuitry all over the Lisa's I/O devices, and the CPU, and also to the ProFile drive, and this causes it to reset, and restart its self test again, however since the Lisa finishes its own self-test before the ProFile does, the ProFile is now busy and can't be booted from.
If you look on page 48 of http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/hardware/Lisa_Hardware_Manual_Sep82.pdf you'll see that pin #21 is CRES - or controller reset.
If you then look at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/hardware/050-4027-A_Parallel.pdf you'll see a signal from !RESET going from location C4 pin 7 to reset the VIA at U3D, this line then goes up a bit to U4E, to the right and down to location A2, through resistor pack U5E and out to the port on pin 21 labeled !LCRES - this is the same as on the motherboard and is the controller reset line for the lower port.
On the next page, you'll see something similar for the upper port.
So the power on signal is what causes the ProFile to reboot itself even though you've already powered it on and it's already done one self test.
So maybe the fix is to power on the ProFile at the same time as the Lisa, and then use the space bar or mouse to interrupt the boot from the Widget and this would prevent the 2nd reset.
mactjaap:
--- Quote ---So, what I'm saying is that when you power on the ProFile drive, it goes through it's self test of reading from the surface of the disk to test for bad blocks to spare. This is its normal behavior at power on.
--- End quote ---
No. There is no test at all. Nothing happens. Only a red light. No stepping motor like normal without cable.
rayarachelian:
Actually found something: https://apple3.org/Documents/Manuals/Profile_Level_2_Manual.pdf page 157:
"CRES - generated by the host - this is used to reset the Z8 back to its initial state. This usually begins at the start of communications, but whenever it happens, it depends on the host."
So there's also an output on the VIA outside the RESET signal that can trigger CRES, but CRES isn't used to reset the ProFile, it's to put the communications state machine back to the first listening state.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version