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Author Topic: Allowable uploads?  (Read 1274 times)

sigma7

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Allowable uploads?
« on: March 08, 2021, 03:39:23 pm »

Hi Folks,

Apologies if this is stated somewhere:

What is the policy regarding uploads of Lisa ROM images and/or ROM source code?

The essence of these uploads is already available in some form at Bitsavers (binary images and/or source); my uploads would differ in patches (binary and source) and some disassembly listings.

If not acceptable here, suggestions for durable alternates would be appreciated. (Aside from Bitsavers.org, where I presume there is a substantial delay time between submission and availability.)

Cheers,

James
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stepleton

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Re: Allowable uploads?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2021, 04:33:11 pm »

I don't know the local policy, but if it's helpful, I've found GitHub to be an accommodating host for my weekend warrior reverse-engineering, and archive.org hosts a lot of ROM images (and seem quite dedicated to durability!).
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sigma7

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Re: Allowable uploads?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2021, 08:24:30 pm »

GitHub seems appropriate (not 100% convinced about long-term durability, but close).

However, it also seems devilishly complicated for someone who just wants to post some stuff and isn't experienced with version control. I'll go through the guides and see if I get anywhere.

Thanks,
James

edit: as one would expect, the terms of service of Archive.org and GitHub preclude posting something potentially copyright infringing. I think that leaves LisaList2 and BitSavers as the durable repositories. I'll post the stuff here.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 02:03:00 pm by sigma7 »
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Lisa2

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Re: Allowable uploads?
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2021, 09:52:02 am »

James,
Please post anything you think is important.

The forum was created as a long-term repository for Lisa related information.  LisaList2.com is not beholding to a large organization such as Google or GitHub specifically so we ( Lisa enthusiasts ) will always have control over its fate and availability.    I will make every effort to insure this information is available for a long time to come.

Thank you,
Rick
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rayarachelian

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Re: Allowable uploads?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2021, 12:40:33 am »

I'm fine with uploading any types of files here, the forum itself has some limits on allowed types, I think I recall disabling that and having to mess around with it some more. If you run into issues try encapsulating the files with zip or tar.xz, etc.

In the absolute worst case I can throw more money at the hosting provider for a larger instance/storage if necessary.

The goal of LisaList2 is indeed longevity. If I should ever lose interest in the Lisa, or be somehow unable to continue running the forum, it is possible for the other three admins here to download the whole forum, etc. and resurrect it elsewhere. I should probably make better contingency plans than that, but yeah, that is the idea.

I haven't seen stuff being removed from archive.org or bitsavers - perhaps it has happened, though I'm not sure I'd use github for things like ROMs/disk images, etc. This is one reason why the files forum requires a login to view. That said, there is one post on archive.org called the apple lisa tosec uploaded by someone else: https://archive.org/details/Apple_Lisa_TOSEC_2012_04_23 - so likely they would also be friendly.

My advice in terms of the goals of archiving and preservation would be to upload whatever binaries/firmware/etc. to as many friendly places as possible. So that would certainly include LisaList2 as well as bitsavers, archive.org, macintoshgarden, macintoshrepository, etc.

Many of us are aging, and those who were around during the Lisa's creation are starting to go (i.e. Raskin, Larry Tesler, Jobs, etc.) and with this virus, who knows who'll kick the bucket next, etc. So if we are going to save all this information, it needs to be a concerted, planned, effort. Not saying that to sound morbid, but rather, from the point of view of my understand of the Lisa is through first hand experience at using it. I got my first one around 1988, and it has served also as my first Mac. I was exposed to the original Mac and many iterations thereof, I've seen a lot of the ads and FUD and propaganda as well as seeing it unfairly called a flop over and over. As is the norm, the winners write the history books, and the new generations that come after us will not have the benefit of first hand information, and certainly not the hands on experience. This is where emulators can help, but also keeping documentation and other artifacts as well as demos and writing down personal experiences.

For example I know our stone age ancestors were able to pick up rocks and break them and create stone knives and spear heads, but I've no clue how to do any of that. Similarly, I imagine future generations will have no idea how to use a Lisa, or a Mac for that matter... That Audible podcast about the Lisa was clearly made by someone with good intentions but no actual experience with a Lisa. Let's help change that...

Hmm, I think we probably need a terms of use and also a privacy policy long term. Yes, there are cookies if you login, and I'm not sure if SMF sets them if you're not logged in and the implications in the EU side, I generally don't care about such things, but then, I don't care to add ads or tracking either and I only look through the logs to deal with hacking attempts, rather than to de-anonymize users, or advertise to them.

I'm totally fine with announcing new Lisa related products on here, or things related to the Lisa that may be off topic but still of interest to our hobby, like the RetroBridgeBBS, frogfind, Classzilla/10FourFox, etc. or if someone asks, mentioning an X/ProFile/floppyEmu/aphid/usb2lisa, etc.

I did see a couple of new users who set up ads in their signatures and blocked them, and the hosting provider has informed me of a couple of DDoS attempts in the past that they protected again, but mostly it's been a good clean place without trolls or other nasties, and I'd like to keep it that way.

I'm totally fine with uploading documentation, BLU/floppy/twiggy images, firmware, schematics, commented disassemblies (or autogenerated via Ghidra, etc.) 3D scans for 3D printing Lisa case parts, PCBs in KiCad or Eagle or whatever format, photos, even Motorola 68000 reference guides, etc... all as long as they're Lisa (or early Mac related) to the Files forum. Obviously do compress them with a modern compressor like xz if possible, zip otherwise, and shrink down any PDFs and images to reasonable resolutions if possible before uploading, etc.

For some things hires is better, for example if you have some rare Lisa expansion slot card, a high res photo of both the front and the back where you can read the chip labels is vital (as ofc are the firmwares on it.)

This is just my $0.02 and not the final word of the law, set in stone, etc. We can vote on these things as needed, and totally open to all ideas. I don't see my role here as dictator, benevolent or otherwise, but rather, more like janitorial staff, or librarian. Not my first choice in life to run a forum, but it is fun and enjoyable to be part of it, I'd much rather spend more time writing LisaEm code than administratrivia, but what must be done, will be done.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 12:48:30 am by rayarachelian »
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Lisa2

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Re: Allowable uploads?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2021, 11:07:24 am »

Ray,
I appreciate that you have been doing most of the heavy lifting here and have taken on most of the costs.  When the time comes that you need more help, $, or wish to pass the baton, I am here to help.
Thank you,
Rick
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stepleton

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Re: Allowable uploads?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2021, 04:59:19 pm »

Hear hear. I'm happy to pitch in, too.
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