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Author Topic: Sun20 Questions/Revival  (Read 10938 times)

shatle

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Sun20 Questions/Revival
« on: February 17, 2023, 12:04:25 pm »

I have on hand a Sun20 hard drive - I presume out of an XL at some point in time.

When placed in an XL with Lisa ROMs, the drive spins up but is not recognized. BLU does not appear to recognize the drive either.

Some googling has not turned up any info on how to test or use one of these drives, at least that I can find.

Of course, the MFM(?) drive is suspect at this point due to age. My drive is a Kyocera. The SunRem controller board had a chip labeled "Sun Controller Rev F".

So my questions are..

Any outstanding doc on these drives?
Are they suitable for both LisaOS and Macworks, or Macworks only?
Is there special software or process to set up this drive for use?
If I need to replace the drive mechanism, what would be suitable for replacement drives?

If I've missed some obvious trove of info on-line please feel free to point me at it. Otherwise, I look forward to what you can help me learn about this guy!
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AlexTheCat123

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Re: Sun20 Questions/Revival
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2023, 03:38:06 pm »

I bought a bare Sun20 board from VintageMicros a couple months ago in an attempt to build my own and, although I haven't had any success with getting it to work yet, I think I might have a little bit of info on diagnostic utilities for these drives. The board has a 3-pin serial header on it right next to the MFM data headers and, after looking through the ROM a bit, it appears that you can connect to the controller via this header at 2400 baud and it should give you a menu where you can enter commands to initialize and test the drive. As I said, I haven't been able to get mine to work yet for unknown reasons, but I'm pretty confident that this is how you can run some tests on the drive!

You can find the source code, incomplete schematics (we seem to be missing a page), and ROM images for the drive here on Bitsavers.
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sigma7

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Re: Sun20 Questions/Revival
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2023, 03:46:07 pm »

I have on hand a Sun20 hard drive - I presume out of an XL at some point in time.
Sun Remarketing also sold the Sun20 (Sun30, Sun40) internal hard drive as an option/upgrade for the non XL variety of Lisa 2. The parallel port cable was routed through the chassis and card cage, went under the back panel, and plugged into the back panel parallel port.

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Are they suitable for both LisaOS and Macworks, or Macworks only?
IIRC they work for all environments, but some treat it as a 5MB drive. (Might be my imagination though)

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Is there special software or process to set up this drive for use?
If I need to replace the drive mechanism, what would be suitable for replacement drives?
Generally if the drive has been working, then no special software is needed.

If you need to "low level format" eg. if you replace the drive portion, then you need to connect to the serial port on the controller and as Alex suggested, use the controller's firmware to format the drive. Once that is done, the Lisa environment will recognize it as a ProFile and will be able to initialize it as a Lisa/MacWorks/*nix disk.

Since the connections for the internal parallel port go through the motherboard, I suggest cleaning the card edge contacts before looking for a more complicated problem. If it still doesn't work, I'd then work on the controller's serial port connection.

There was a trick to the low level format which involved subtracting 2 from something. eg. when the formatter asks for the number of cylinders or the last cylinder, you subtract 2 from the actual number. I'm sure I'm not imagining the -2 aspect, but I don't recall exactly what it applies to... I think it is number of cylinders or total number of sectors or something like that.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 04:09:44 pm by sigma7 »
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shatle

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Re: Sun20 Questions/Revival
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2023, 05:01:24 pm »

I was connecting it to the internal Widget connector.

Would it be worth connecting it to a parallel card in the card cage to see if that makes a difference?

At the least I can connect to the serial port and see what I can see.

Thanks to both of you for the info!
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compu_85

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Re: Sun20 Questions/Revival
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2023, 05:07:13 pm »

If you connect to the serial port I'm curious what you'll see.

IIRC the source for the controller software is on bitsavers.

-J
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sigma7

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Re: Sun20 Questions/Revival
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2023, 06:10:08 pm »

I was connecting it to the internal Widget connector. Would it be worth connecting it to a parallel card in the card cage to see if that makes a difference?
It is unlikely that a different parallel port will make a difference, although it would be a way to try a different signal path than the chassis cabling.

Note that most operating environments don't treat the parallel card drives the same as drives connected to the built-in parallel port. eg. a drive that is bootable from the built-in port is not bootable from the parallel card in most cases. Notable exceptions are MacWorks Plus II and BLU which do support moving a drive to a different port.
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At the least I can connect to the serial port and see what I can see.
Warning: I believe the controller's port is TTL, so you shouldn't connect it directly to an RS-232 port (which has bigger and bipolar voltage signals, and are not compatible with/may damage TTL level inputs)

You can get a few TTL to RS223 converters on Amazon for under $10
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 06:23:28 pm by sigma7 »
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sigma7

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Re: Sun20 Questions/Revival
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2023, 06:19:57 pm »

There was a trick to the low level format which involved subtracting 2 from something. eg. when the formatter asks for the number of cylinders or the last cylinder, you subtract 2 from the actual number. I'm sure I'm not imagining the -2 aspect, but I don't recall exactly what it applies to... I think it is number of cylinders or total number of sectors or something like that.
Found some notes...

Helmut Post in Germany was working on figuring out the Sun20 LLF procedure (ca. 2005 I think); I haven't seen a posting from him in a while, so he may not be fiddling with Lisas any more. I'm confident he would have figured it out... maybe one of the other folk in Germany know the details.

Commands for the controller board per Helmut:
>        "F"       Format
>        "BI"     Burn In - - Ten hour test. "Format Media" is test one  ? ?
>        "V"      Verify
>        "D"      Diagnosis
>        "DR"    Dump Register

In a later email, I found "In the meantime, you might see if the "F!" command is useful." Which suggests to me that "F!" is a useful variant of the formatting command. (eg. perhaps the single character "F" command doesn't actually work?)

The following questions are asked for in their formatting program (per Helmut or Larry Parks, not sure):

>> a).  Last Cylinder Number:
>> b).  Number of Heads:
>> c).  Number of Sectors:
>> d).  Pre-Compensation Cylinder:         
>> e).  LUN Status Byte:
>> f).  Flag Byte:
>> g). Interleave Number:

I believe:
- the last cylinder Number is the value that should be entered 2 less than one would expect.
- values are entered in hex
- LUN and Flag bytes should be 0

In a thread regarding the Sun40, I found this:
Quote
Mystery solved. I find that:

The drive formatter in 1.0.18 supports a maximum of 32 MB, while in 1.1h (and MW+II) it is 2 GB.

As long as you _format_ the drive while running 1.1h or MW+II, you can use more than 32 MB, even if you install 1.0.18 on it.

If you format a drive > 32 MB while running 1.0.18, you will probably have I/O errors when using the drive, but these will only occur when reading a sector that has not been written to, so the error may take a long time to appear.

Quote
... the Sun20s were notorious for not showing up. I don't know if this was drive specific, or MW+ version specific or what. If you can't get it to appear in Expert mode, restart and try again.

Long ago I heard from a reliable source that you should not power up a Sun20 without the data cable attached to the Lisa. In some cases this screwed up the formatting and the drive had to be sent back to SR to be fixed. I don't know if whatever caused this problem may influence what you are doing {attempting to LLF the Sun20}, but you may want to try both powering-down and not-powering-down the drive when switching from  formatting to the installer.

I'll update this post if I find more
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 06:53:57 pm by sigma7 »
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patrick

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Re: Sun20 Questions/Revival
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2023, 04:42:47 am »

Years ago I had two of these drives, but never got them to work. I started disassembling the firmware then to better understand how the serial commands work. Perhaps someone would like to complete this now that the official source code is available.

IIRC the formatting routine crashed somewhere during the installation process. Maybe this was related to the "-2" issue -- I always entered the true drive parameters.


The controller board should work with any MFM or RLL drive. If the drive mechanism has more heads or cylinders than supported by the controller, just enter a lower number. The remaining part will remain unused.
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shatle

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Re: Sun20 Questions/Revival
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2023, 08:46:37 am »

This project is on the back burner for now, but will update here once I (ever) get the thing back on the bench!
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