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Author Topic: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10  (Read 2589 times)

Markintosh

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Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« on: May 20, 2024, 08:59:31 am »

Hello gang!

I have had a battery bombed Lisa 2/5 since June 2023. I just bought another Lisa2 I thought was a 2/10 bc the drive cage is from a 2/10.

HOWEVER: It seems my Computer is a 2/5. The 2/10 card cage is not compatible as the 2/5 edge connectors in the body have staggered depths, & the 2/10 seems to have evenly spaced connectors. 

The staggered connector is part of the Drive Cage/Power Switch harness.

I want to complete this unit as a 2/10. Are there any other differences in front of the 2/5's "firewall", such as the video card, that will prevent me from using the 2/10 card cage in this unit?


Thank you in advance!!


-Mark
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sigma7

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2024, 05:19:16 pm »

I want to complete this unit as a 2/10. Are there any other differences in front of the 2/5's "firewall", such as the video card, that will prevent me from using the 2/10 card cage in this unit?

Chassis differences between the 2/5 and 2/10

Chassis 60 pin card edge connector
  • 2/5: mounted directly to the chassis. This results in the two card edge connectors of the 2/5 motherboard to be offset.
  • 2/10: mounted on standoffs, making it more recessed in the chassis. This results in the two card edge connectors of the 2/10 motherboard to be aligned.
Chassis 60 conductor ribbon cable
  • 2/5: Terminates in two 26 pin socket connectors (originally for two Twiggy drives, the 2/5 drive cage uses the Lite Adapter to convert one of the 26 pin sockets to the 20 pin cable used by the 3.5" drive), and one 10 pin socket for the power button/keyboard jack
  • 2/10: Terminates in one 26 pin socket connector (the internal parallel port), one 20 pin socket connector (for a 3.5" floppy) and one 10 pin socket for the power button/keyboard jack
Chassis wiring harness
  • 2/5: has a 3 pin socket, not used by anything that we know of
  • 2/10: has an 8 pin socket that provides power to a Widget
Chassis sheet metal (revised -- this cutout may not be a sign of a 2/10 or 2/5)
  • There is a cutout between the drive cage area and the card cage area aligned with a slot 3 expansion card. The cutout appears to be suitable for a 60 pin card edge connector; typically unused except for eg. routing a SCSI cable for an internal drive.
Some of the things that are the same:
  • Video Board
  • CRT, flyback transformer
  • power switch & keyboard jack assembly
  • speaker and front panel safety interlock
  • card edge connectors for the power supply and the motherboard
  • plastic panels, aside from the dual Twiggy front panel

So, to convert a 2/5 chassis for use with a 2/10 motherboard:
  • remount the 60 pin card edge connector on standoffs.
  • If you wish to use a floppy drive, you will need to change / alter / adapt the chassis ribbon cable. It is possible to split off 20 conductors and crimp on the 2/10 specific floppy connector.
    If you modify the cable, it is wise to label it as mismatching the internal drive cable(s) and motherboard can result in damage.
  • If you wish to install a Widget, you will need to install an 8 pin Widget power connector, and change / alter / adapt the chassis ribbon cable, noting that the parallel port connector is not in the same orientation as a lower Twiggy/Lite Adapter connector.

edit: I observe the expansion slot 3 connector cutout is not on all 2/10 chassis, so perhaps I had it backwards, or perhaps it is unpredictable which chassis have it.
Emphasised that mods to the ribbon cable should be labelled.
Added note that the internal parallel port connector is not in the same orientation as the lower Twiggy/Lite Adapter connector.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 04:19:51 pm by sigma7 »
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Markintosh

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2024, 03:59:13 pm »

 ;D


sigma7-

This is EXACTLY the info I needed! Thank you!

I had hoped I could simply use stand offs to set the edge connector further forward-thank you for confirming!

Great info on the ribbon cables as well.


Can you confirm another thing?: Did the factory Apple 2/10's come with 400k or 800k floppies? I'm staring to think that only the Sun Remarking ones had 800's.


I know I'll have a few more questions as I modify my ribbon cable .

Thanks again,


-Mark
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sigma7

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2024, 04:31:15 pm »

Did the factory Apple 2/10's come with 400k or 800k floppies?

All of the Lisa 2s from Apple shipped with Sony 400k 3.5" drives.

The 800k upgrade/modification was developed (by Apple for Sun Remarketing IIRC) after Apple stopped selling Lisas. SR was selling the upgrade as the 800k ROM with a Chinon 800k drive. The 800k ROM also works with Sony 800k drives.

Recall that the SR 2/10 800k ROM has a bug that prevents successfully re-initializing a 3.5" floppy. That bug is fixed in the 400k/800k "universal" ROM posted in the files section: Lisa I/O Board ROMs
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Markintosh

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2024, 04:38:44 pm »

Oh-fantastic!

I plan to make this unit into a 2/10 without the screen updates for Mac compatibility.

Without any other S.R. updates, can the ROM you spoke of be used in my 2/10 setup with an 800k?


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sigma7

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2024, 05:27:57 pm »

I plan to make this unit into a 2/10 without the screen updates for Mac compatibility.

Without any other S.R. updates, can the ROM you spoke of be used in my 2/10 setup with an 800k?

Yes, the "XLSSDSM6" I/O Board ROM is for use with either a 400k or 800k drive on a 2/10, and the cabling is the same, but the 400k and 800k drives are different heights so mounting them in the drive cage to align with the slot in the front panel is different.

For both the Lisa 2/10 aka XL and 2/5:

The square pixel screen modification is completely separate from the I/O Board ROM & 3.5" floppy drive options (aside from not being able to combine square pixels and Twiggies with any available operating environment, except BLU maybe?)

Also, MacWorks can be used with or without the square pixel modification (There are variants of MacWorks XL specific to each screen configuration, while MW+/II are universal), and I suspect MW+/II varieties all operate ok with either 400k or 800k floppy drives. MacWorks XL up to 3.0 predate the 800k drive; I don't recall if they work with it 100% or not. Other operating environments (LOS, Workshop, *nix) don't support the square pixel configuration (at least until LOS source can be recompiled).
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Markintosh

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2024, 05:41:27 pm »

Good to know-thank you!

I have a custom bracket for an 800k drive if I go that route. I believe I also have a spare 400k drive I can use as an option.



I do not have a Widget drive. I'm not sure I want to deal with them, as I've think I've heard they can be troublesome.

Are there any solid state alternatives to the Widget, ie: the TashTiny?



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sigma7

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2024, 06:01:36 pm »

I do not have a Widget drive. I'm not sure I want to deal with them, as I've think I've heard they can be troublesome.

Are there any solid state alternatives to the Widget, ie: the TashTiny?

For actual use (as opposed to a collection), I think most would agree that you don't want a real Apple Widget or Apple ProFile due to their age.

There are multiple alternatives for a modern replacement for the Widget; searching for "Apple ProFile Emulator" should find those (although a ProFile and Widget are not literally the same, a ProFile emulator is an appropriate substitute), some are DIY, some can be purchased assembled and tested. The parallel port ProFile hard disk as used by the Apple ][ and Apple /// are the same as the one used by the Lisa.

Sorry, I don't know what a TashTiny is... someone else?
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sigma7

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2024, 06:47:28 pm »

... I'll have a few more questions as I modify my ribbon cable

This might (or might not) be helpful: Chassis Ribbon Cable
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Markintosh

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2024, 09:56:29 am »

That is great news that the Widget can be replaced with a ProFile emulator-I have the parts to build one!

I recently acquired a real ProFile, just to have one. I do not like them on top of Lisas-they don't fit in well. ProFile was clearly designed to meld into an Apple /// and it looks perfect set into one.

The cable post you made me is VERY helpful-thank you!

The TashTiny is an offshoot of the Tash 20, a Mac 20HD emulator. The floppy port HDD.

I like the idea of the Arduino based ProFile emulator mounted into the drive cage.


Do you recommend adding a cooling fan to Lisas??



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sigma7

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2024, 04:06:20 pm »

Do you recommend adding a cooling fan to Lisas??

Lisa Power Supplies tend to get very warm, so a fan is helpful for longevity. eg. mounted inside the PSU blowing upwards, or on a DIY chimney over the PSU vents at the rear of the top cover if you don't want to open the PSU. Since the original convection cooled design is almost sufficient, a low speed/quiet fan is all that is needed.

If you have an XLerator 16 or 18, a fan in the card cage is usually required for stable operation. The XLerator 12.5 usually doesn't require it.

If you have a rotating hard disk in the drive cage (eg. an original Widget), or a SCSI drive on an expansion card, a fan is probably required for it. Might not be necessary if it is a low power laptop drive.

I suspect the HD20 won't work even with MacWorks +/II, but I don't recall if anyone has tried it.
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Markintosh

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2024, 08:17:43 pm »

Thank you, I think I'll try a solid state solution, if they work.

I will be performing Warmech's ATX upgrade to one of my 1.2a PSU's. That mod includes a 40mm fan within the PSU case.



I also have one 1.8a PSU. I can recap it, but I don't know if it has components that are no longer available.

What is your advice re: repairing a 1.8a?


Thank you.
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stepleton

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2024, 06:07:16 am »

Note that the Arduino-based emulator doesn't work with the internal (Widget) hard drive connector yet, so far as I know.

The PocketBeagle-based system that I made sometimes works on the internal connector --- in fact one of my own devices does it quite reliably. Unfortunately not all of them do. The reason for the flakiness is that the voltage level converter I used in my design isn't intended for use with the longer cable runs like the Widget ribbon cable.

The Revision B version of this PocketBeagle-based device by ArcaneByte does voltage level shifting in a different way that works well with the internal connector. If ArcaneByte have any available you can buy from them; alternatively, the design is open if you want to try and source components on your own.

Unfortunately for both of those solutions, the PocketBeagle is all but discontinued today. You might find some on eBay. For the internal connector, though, your best alternatives are liable to be X/ProFile or IDEFile.
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AlexTheCat123

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2024, 11:33:40 am »

Quote
Note that the Arduino-based emulator doesn't work with the internal (Widget) hard drive connector yet, so far as I know.

Luckily, this has now been fixed! I've been busy with a variety of other Lisa-related projects lately, and I've kind of neglected the ArduinoFile as a result, which is why the readme hasn't been updated to reflect this, but you can follow the steps here to get it working with the 2/10. Just make sure that you use the code in the 2/10_Testing branch. And let me know if you have any other questions!

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stepleton

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Re: Need HELP re: Lisa 2/5 vs. Lisa 2/10
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2024, 04:08:08 pm »

Excellent! One day I ought to make one of these things.
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