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Author Topic: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool  (Read 15144 times)

Verault

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2025, 04:17:11 pm »

Thanks for the link. Im going to buy one myself.

I dont need two so if someone in the states wants the second one for the cost of postage let me know.
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jamesdenton

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2025, 04:20:43 pm »

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07S8WN57B/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1THAZDOWP300U&psc=1

Those should work and are a less expensive alternative to building your own if you don't already have some length of ribbon cable, DB25/IDC26 connectors, and the crimping tool. It also might be long enough if you install the internal version into a 2/5 and use the Twiggy connector for power but need to snake the DB25 out the back.

If you're using stock Apple motherboard and parallel port or card you will likely need to snip Pin 7 in the top center.
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jamesdenton

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2025, 04:30:15 pm »

And that was the exact thing you said to me there..............

I really have no clue how my wishing there was new Lisa software is so upsetting to you.. But it obviously is.

Lisa development isn't exactly trivial, and up until ~2 years ago there were some wonky bugs in LisaEm that impacted development in Lisa Workshop. There probably still are bugs there, but the main contributor to LisaEm is no longer available to work those out. So, we're left with a small pool of hobbyists that 1) have actual Lisa hardware available and 2) are adept enough to fire up Lisa Workshop and the limited amount of available documentation to actually build a "useful" application. I don't know if anyone has kicked the tires on Workshop in LisaEm lately to know if it will output a working application.

But, as Tom pointed out, there's some Pascal and Toolkit docs out there that can point a willing individual in the right direction of drawing circles and squares to make the first-of-its-kind Lisa Solitaire program (should they be so inclined).
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Verault

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2025, 04:31:51 pm »

Oh I never thought it was trivial in the least. Im sure its quite the opposite.
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sigma7

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2025, 05:13:52 pm »

I never thought it was trivial...

This is the issue for me... what software would be worth the effort?

The only thing that has tempted me over the years is a hex file/disk editor, but even that is a stretch now that we have ProFile emulators.

More recently now that we have LOS source code, I would add a SCSI driver to the list of possible software projects.

Still, I think being able to recompile and install LOS would come first... but the scale of the project... !

Things like Tom's Selector, LisaEm, and dare I say BLU probably give a more immediate benefit from cycles invested. ymmv
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stepleton

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2025, 06:23:58 pm »

There's a few things I would like. If I were retired and could buy a few extra years for my life, I'd like to make a powerpoint clone for the Office System: it's a part of the modern office suite that's missing on Lisa and it also tells you how much fun I am at parties.

Somehow about nine months ago this new piece of Lisa software went up on Github as a bit of a stopgap. And I did actually haul my Lisa 1 into work and give a slide show presentation with the thing --- it was a fun stunt.

Solitaire is a great idea and is probably more fun to program than presentation software. QuickPort (the limited but easier way to "port" Workshop apps to the Office System) would probably do the job here, although my recollection from LisaMandelbrot is that drawing bitmaps (like you'd probably have on the cards) is a bit awkward, hence warnings like these. It might be better to make the card designs with ordinary draw commands. This reminds me that I'd like to make a LisaMandelbrot from ToolKit someday.

To add to the media drivers idea: I'd love to see some kind of networked storage option, similar to FujiNet perhaps. Most? (all?) ESP32s have WiFi, and being able to exchange files over the network would be amazing. This Lisa Device Drivers Manual presumably provides the additional guidance one would want in order to write the drivers:

https://www.applefritter.com/content/lisa-device-drivers-manual

and now that we have the OS source code, we ought to be able to build the units (=libraries) that drivers need, which I don't think are included in the standard Workshop install. Just like so many other things, device drivers seem perhaps a bit overdesigned for the application and can be loaded or unloaded from the OS without rebooting. In fact, you can mark drivers so that they're dynamically loaded and installed only when you use a device that needs them! Another thing about Lisa that's technically and puzzlingly impressive.
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bmwcyclist

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2025, 10:21:19 am »

Thanks for the Link!

I also hope to use the Lisa for presentations

There's a few things I would like. If I were retired and could buy a few extra years for my life, I'd like to make a powerpoint clone for the Office System: it's a part of the modern office suite that's missing on Lisa and it also tells you how much fun I am at parties.

Somehow about nine months ago this new piece of Lisa software went up on Github as a bit of a stopgap. And I did actually haul my Lisa 1 into work and give a slide show presentation with the thing --- it was a fun stunt.

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Using my LISA for writing blogs and other work projects and fun and games at home. LISA 2/10, AST RAM board, ESProfile, FloppyEMU, Mac2LISA Mac extended keyboard, reproduction LISA 1 mouse.

bmwcyclist

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2025, 06:53:27 pm »

Here is my 3d printed ESProfile holder (from the other thread).

I have a white one also but the orange caught my eye. I have an extra if anyone wants it!

I am powering the fan from the card also.
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Using my LISA for writing blogs and other work projects and fun and games at home. LISA 2/10, AST RAM board, ESProfile, FloppyEMU, Mac2LISA Mac extended keyboard, reproduction LISA 1 mouse.

AlexTheCat123

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2025, 01:29:20 pm »

I am powering the fan from the card also.


Nice!



In the latest design revision, I've added a fan header, so you can now plug the fan straight in instead of using clips if you have the latest board!
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ried

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2025, 12:55:36 pm »

Sigh.

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/undocumented-commands-found-in-bluetooth-chip-used-by-a-billion-devices/

"The ubiquitous ESP32 microchip made by Chinese manufacturer Espressif and used by over 1 billion units as of 2023 contains undocumented commands that could be leveraged for attacks.

The undocumented commands allow spoofing of trusted devices, unauthorized data access, pivoting to other devices on the network, and potentially establishing long-term persistence..."

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bmwcyclist

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2025, 01:40:17 pm »

Ironically, I am planning on using my LISA (when I get it fully running and outfitted) to write security blogs on things like IOT devices.

thanks for the heads up!!!
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Using my LISA for writing blogs and other work projects and fun and games at home. LISA 2/10, AST RAM board, ESProfile, FloppyEMU, Mac2LISA Mac extended keyboard, reproduction LISA 1 mouse.

sigma7

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2025, 02:30:36 pm »

using my LISA ... to write security blogs

Interesting! If you proceed with that you may be one of the few using a Lisa for actual productivity/work.

I don't recall specifics as to when the first viruses appeared for the Macintosh, but I'm confident the Mac Plus could be infected, which means that if you're using MW+/II you're vulnerable.

I presume some other vintage Mac forum has info about those early viruses... something to watch for when testing old software if you depend on your Lisa for work.
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Lisa2

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2025, 07:16:57 pm »

Here is a Pascal code snippet for Lisa Workshop that enables the use of a SCSI hard drive with Lisa OS 3.0.1:
This is AI written wonder if it would work?

A basic example, Yes.  Also very high level.

My low level HI (Human Intelligence) predicts this will not work... calling a SCSI manager that does not exist in the Lisa OS.
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bmwcyclist

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2025, 08:32:43 pm »

using my LISA ... to write security blogs

Interesting! If you proceed with that you may be one of the few using a Lisa for actual productivity/work.
If you're using MW+/II, you're vulnerable. This is something to watch for when testing old software if you depend on your Lisa for work.

I hope I am successful!

If I do run into one, it is not likely to get far as the O/S is contained to SD cards and floppy images....

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Using my LISA for writing blogs and other work projects and fun and games at home. LISA 2/10, AST RAM board, ESProfile, FloppyEMU, Mac2LISA Mac extended keyboard, reproduction LISA 1 mouse.

stepleton

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Re: ESProFile - A Powerful ProFile/Widget Emulator and Diagnostic Tool
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2025, 05:12:28 am »

Here is a Pascal code snippet for Lisa Workshop that enables the use of a SCSI hard drive with Lisa OS 3.0.1:
This is AI written wonder if it would work?

(What is Lisa OS 3.0.1?)

As Lisa2 has pointed out, this program is bogus. The AI has done what they usually do when they don't know what they're talking about, which is to give you an attractive-looking lie.

The program does appear to be valid Pascal syntax, so that's a good start. What it seems to want to do is use some built-in SCSI functionality to mount a SCSI drive. The Lisa OS doesn't have any SCSI functionality at all, so this program is trying to use something that doesn't exist. And the way it uses its made-up functionality --- mount a drive --- is probably something that you could do with the Preferences program or the Workshop shell if that functionality did exist. In other words, if this program worked, there probably would not be a need for it...

The way the program is trying to invoke that functionality appears to be through a library called "SCSI" (see under "USES"). There is no SCSI library in the Lisa OS: this is something we would have to write. The library would probably make use of a SCSI device driver (or a stack of them: one for SCSI, one for storage that uses SCSI), which is also something we would have to write. The device driver manual that I linked to earlier would probably help out a lot with that, but it would still be an ambitious undertaking!

The program also appears to be using a library called LisaTypes, which I don't remember existing either. Presumably this is where the SCSIdevice record type would have been defined.

For programs that you build with the Workshop, all but the most fundamental libraries have to be listed alongside a special comment that tells the compiler where to find the library. This comment takes the form {$U library_file_name.OBJ }. You can see some of these in a real Workshop Pascal program here: https://github.com/stepleton/LisaMandelbrot/blob/master/Pro/MANDELQD.TEXT#L81

The rest of the program goes on to use the made-up SCSI library in a made-up way. Pure imagination can never be right or wrong, so there's not much to say about what you see here, other than that it won't be very helpful in getting SCSI in the Lisa OS in real life. As one final nit, though, Workshop Pascal files usually have the extension .TEXT, not .PAS.


Doing this development for real will be a big lift for a human or an AI. Despite what I've said here, I do think generative AI systems could play a role here: used well and with appropriate hand-holding, they're pretty good at writing code. But I don't think they're going to know how to write Lisa device drivers "out of the box". At a minimum, I think you will need to use a model with a big context window and provide useful resources within that context window, like that device driver manual and perhaps even some of the source code for the libraries that the example code in the manual uses. You will also need to provide low-level information about the SCSI card that you'd like the driver to use, potentially including the datasheet for the SCSI IC that it employs. Ultimately, by the time you've given the AI everything it needs to do the job, you may find that you can do a lot of the job on your own anyway...
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