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[aihk]

Dear all,
I am restoring my old Apple Lisa 2/5 I/O board. I have a problem that I cannot get a correct boot image after turning on the Lisa but instead the screen displays garbage. During the turn on Lisa one beep appears (sometimes two short beeps). The board worked correctly before. I have a second good I/O board and after inserting it into the same Lisa there are no problems. So the issue is definitely somewhere in I/O board. Maybe someone knows this problem and knows hints where I should start with measurements on the oscilloscope?
Screen from boot process below. Thanks

My situation is the same as yours, did you solve this problem?

[sigma7]

My situation is the same as yours, did you solve this problem?

Since this symptom can be caused by quite a few problems, the repairs necessary for two boards with this same problem may be completely different (or maybe the same).

I suspect the initial repair effort stalled at the steep troubleshooting hurdle... if you have access to some sort of test equipment (or willing to buy some), and some time, we can try to help diagnose to the component level.

edit: From the following discussion, it is revealed the situation is somewhat different, so the topic was split.

[aihk]

My situation is the same as yours, did you solve this problem?

Since this symptom can be caused by quite a few problems, the repairs necessary for two boards with this same problem may be completely different (or maybe the same).

I suspect the initial repair effort stalled at the steep troubleshooting hurdle... if you have access to some sort of test equipment (or willing to buy some), and some time, we can try to help diagnose to the component level.

I built the LISA myself, I suspect it's the memory, I have an oscilloscope and a multimeter. Now I don't know how to check for errors

[aihk]

My situation is the same as yours, did you solve this problem?

Since this symptom can be caused by quite a few problems, the repairs necessary for two boards with this same problem may be completely different (or maybe the same).

I suspect the initial repair effort stalled at the steep troubleshooting hurdle... if you have access to some sort of test equipment (or willing to buy some), and some time, we can try to help diagnose to the component level.

I uploaded the error sound, I'm new and I'm not sure what kind of error alarm sound it is

[sigma7]

I uploaded the error sound

Those are the "two lo beeps" indicating "no memory" per https://lisafaq.sunder.net/lisafaq-hw-rom_beeps.html

I built the LISA myself

Congrats, that's a big project!

Have you been able to test your boards separately in a working Lisa, or try a set of known-working boards in yours? Isolating the problem to a particular board will make troubleshooting a lot more manageable.

[aihk]

I'm sorry, but I don't have a LISA that works. Lisa that I built myself. I recently had time to test again, I used a 256K RAM into the 1# slot and there was a buzzer sound, if I plugged the RAM into the 2# slot I uploaded two buzzer sounds, I'm not sure if it's a problem with all the monochrome RAM slot wiring, or if it's caused by other board influences

[sigma7]

I used a 256K RAM into the 1# slot and there was a buzzer sound, if I plugged the RAM into the 2# slot I uploaded two buzzer sounds

The original Sun Remarketing SIMM RAM board (that your memory board seems to be a clone of), requires 256K x 9 SIMMs, installed in pairs. So if your design is the same, you would need to install two 256K x 9 SIMMs in the two sockets labelled "MEM1".

I'm not sure if it's a problem with all the monochrome RAM slot wiring, or if it's caused by other board influences

Troubleshooting a new build is somewhat different from repairing a computer that used to work, as there are many more possible problems compared to looking for a formerly working part that has failed... for example you may have a missing trace, an open trace, a shorted trace, a wrong part, the wrong type of a correct part (eg. 74LS283 instead of 74F283), a part installed the wrong way, a missing solder joint, a solder bridge, etc.

If all of your boards are new untested builds, then you have all of those possible problems on each board, and may have multiple problems to find. The problem(s) can be solved, but it may be a lot of work to track down each one, hence the great value in being able to eliminate some possibilities by trying each of your boards in a working Lisa to see if some work ok... it will be worth the effort to find someone local to you that has a Lisa.

Here are some suggestions:

- Carefully review the sites and forums (for each board design you used) to check for known problems & documented fixes (and if there are any that apply, proceed with those fixes)
- Double check that every part is the correct family of the part type, and installed in the correct orientation
- Double check that every solder joint has been made - since a skipped solder joint is easy to miss, it is worth doing this a few times with each board, in different orientations with different lighting angles

Since this isn't the same problem as the first post in this topic (where the computer worked fine, until a particular I/O Board was installed, at which point the CPU access to memory was interrupted), I'll move it to a separate topic.

edit: clarified "MEM1" vs #1

[sigma7]

... suggestions

Also look carefully for IC pins that are not in their socket... eg. bent under the chip, or outside of the socket. Pins bent under are often hard to see, so again look at different angles, preferably with magnification.

Also, it is unclear if the red boxes are indicating something... if so, please clarify.

edit: question about red boxes

[aihk]

... suggestions

Also look carefully for IC pins that are not in their socket... eg. bent under the chip, or outside of the socket. Pins bent under are often hard to see, so again look at different angles, preferably with magnification.

Also, it is unclear if the red boxes are indicating something... if so, please clarify.

edit: question about red boxes

The red box makes a beep when I only plug in one memory module, and if I insert the memory module into a slot that is not a red box, it will turn on the phone with two buzzers.

I'm very sorry, English is not my native language, I use machine translation, please forgive me

[sigma7]

English is not my native language, I use machine translation

That is ok. I will try to write accordingly. Please ask for clarification or another written expression if the translation is not clear to you.

It may help to say what language(s) you understand best. I can test translating, then back to english, to see how the meaning changes.

The red box makes a beep when I only plug in one memory module, and if I insert the memory module into a slot that is not a red box, it will turn on the phone with two buzzers.

The memory board will NOT work with 1 module. Please install 2 memory modules in the same positions as in your video "IMG_7302". The two white sockets are marked MEM1.

Did you test with the I/O Board removed/missing? Was there any image on the screen? If so, was the image changing or steady/static?

Do you understand the suggestions to check if the parts are correct and all pins soldered?

[aihk]

English is not my native language, I use machine translation

That is ok. I will try to write accordingly. Please ask for clarification or another written expression if the translation is not clear to you.

It may help to say what language(s) you understand best. I can test translating, then back to english, to see how the meaning changes.

The red box makes a beep when I only plug in one memory module, and if I insert the memory module into a slot that is not a red box, it will turn on the phone with two buzzers.

The memory board will NOT work with 1 module. Please install 2 memory modules in the same positions as in your video "IMG_7302". The two white sockets are marked MEM1.

Did you test with the I/O Board removed/missing? Was there any image on the screen? If so, was the image changing or steady/static?

Do you understand the suggestions to check if the parts are correct and all pins soldered?

I uploaded the boot video. I used RGBtoHDMI.

I also found some other information on the Internet, it could be caused by the memory module.

https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/lisa-error-45.45464/
https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/apple-lisa-sun-remarketing-2mb-expansion-what-ram-do-i-need.2598/#post-29773

I made a new 9x256 memory module. The PCB is still in transport and I can't be sure if it will work

[aihk]

English is not my native language, I use machine translation

That is ok. I will try to write accordingly. Please ask for clarification or another written expression if the translation is not clear to you.

It may help to say what language(s) you understand best. I can test translating, then back to english, to see how the meaning changes.

The red box makes a beep when I only plug in one memory module, and if I insert the memory module into a slot that is not a red box, it will turn on the phone with two buzzers.

The memory board will NOT work with 1 module. Please install 2 memory modules in the same positions as in your video "IMG_7302". The two white sockets are marked MEM1.

Did you test with the I/O Board removed/missing? Was there any image on the screen? If so, was the image changing or steady/static?

Do you understand the suggestions to check if the parts are correct and all pins soldered?

The same picture still appears after I removed the IO board. I mailed the memory module to a friend far away, and he can start up and see the with the same memory module as mine. Since I didn't solder the parity chip on the memory module I gave him, it got stuck at error 45. I there is a fault with my CPU card. I repeatedly start it up and it always shows the same picture, unless I change to a different memory module, then the picture will change It seems that there is a fault with the even-numbered memory slot on my memory board. Now I'm blind and don't know where to start. Without a running normally to determine which board is the problem, it's difficult to troubleshoot.

[sigma7]

(I) don't know where to start

Troubleshooting an electronic circuit that has never worked in the past can be extremely time consuming and difficult.

To not waste time, it is important to search for the common problems that can be found just by looking.

Do these things first:

1 - Carefully review the sites and forums (for each board design you used) to check for known problems & documented fixes (and if there are any that apply, proceed with those fixes).

2 - Double check that every part is the correct family of the part type (eg. 74F, 74S, 74LS, etc.), and installed in the correct orientation.

3 - Double check that every solder joint has been made - since a skipped solder joint is easy to miss, do this a few times with each board, in different orientations with different lighting angles.

4 - look carefully for IC pins that are not in their socket... eg. bent under the chip, or outside of the socket. Pins bent under are often hard to see, so again look at different angles, preferably with magnification.

Do the above (1, 2, 3, 4) for every board:

A - CPU Board
B - I/O Board
C - Memory Board
D - Motherboard

You can print this table and add a checkmark for each item completed:

Examine Board	1	2	3	4
A CPU Board	_	_	_	_
B I/O Board	_	_	_	_
C Mem Board	_	_	_	_
D Motherboard	_	_	_	_

So you have 16 things to do. A1, A2, A3, A4, B1, B2, B3, B4, C1, C2, C3, C4, D1, D2, D3, D4.

After you have completed those 16 easy things, then the long and difficult troubleshooting process can begin.

Please point at the parts of this message that are not clear.

[aihk]

(I) don't know where to start

Troubleshooting an electronic circuit that has never worked in the past can be extremely time consuming and difficult.

To not waste time, it is important to search for the common problems that can be found just by looking.

Do these things first:

1 - Carefully review the sites and forums (for each board design you used) to check for known problems & documented fixes (and if there are any that apply, proceed with those fixes).

2 - Double check that every part is the correct family of the part type (eg. 74F, 74S, 74LS, etc.), and installed in the correct orientation.

3 - Double check that every solder joint has been made - since a skipped solder joint is easy to miss, do this a few times with each board, in different orientations with different lighting angles.

4 - look carefully for IC pins that are not in their socket... eg. bent under the chip, or outside of the socket. Pins bent under are often hard to see, so again look at different angles, preferably with magnification.

Do the above (1, 2, 3, 4) for every board:

A - CPU Board
B - I/O Board
C - Memory Board
D - Motherboard

You can print this table and add a checkmark for each item completed:

Examine Board	1	2	3	4
A CPU Board	_	_	_	_
B I/O Board	_	_	_	_
C Mem Board	_	_	_	_
D Motherboard	_	_	_	_

So you have 16 things to do. A1, A2, A3, A4, B1, B2, B3, B4, C1, C2, C3, C4, D1, D2, D3, D4.

After you have completed those 16 easy things, then the long and difficult troubleshooting process can begin.

Please point at the parts of this message that are not clear.

 
My LISA is already running. It feels like there is still a long way to go. Thank you sigma7.

[ried]

Congratulations! Nice work