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[bmwcyclist]

In a Facebook conversation with someone at FugiNet they said they would need documentation on how to make Lisa drivers. I’m not a developer although I’ve been IT for a long time. It’s been on the network and Security side. Do we have any archives of information that would help?

Something that would run on a Mac XL I’m assuming…

“ Possible only if sufficient information is available e.g. to make a new device driver for 7/7. e.g. a version could be attached via the parallel port, in the same way as the Profile hard disk, but again, information is needed. The only documentation I have is for writing 7/7 user applications (using Clascal).”

[stepleton]

I think this is a good idea and have had FujiNet come to mind before when thinking about networking for the Lisa.

If "Mac XL" means a Lisa running MacWorks, then a FujiNet solution might not be too different to a hypothetical FujiNet for classic Macs. For those, it could make sense to use the same serial port technique that LocalTalk uses, giving you 230 kbit/s --- not super speedy, but much faster than the Atari SIO bus where FujiNet made its debut (126 kbit/s). This kind of solution may allow you to use the same driver software on the Lisa (under MacWorks, of course) or the Mac.

Parallel port only is much faster (approaching a megabyte per second in some cases IIRC) but is a Lisa-only approach --- and if you're going to be Lisa-only, then I say go for the Lisa OS and the Office System. The good news is that some detailed information for making Lisa device drivers is out there, with example code even:

https://archive.org/details/AppleLisa-DeviceDriverManual/mode/2up

Naturally I don't know if anyone has ever attempted this, and some of the units referenced in the example code and in the docs are units I don't remember from a standard Workshop install. Fortunately, with the source code release, it may be possible for anyone to build those units for themselves. I haven't investigated this. Of course the OS code itself has source code for device drivers too... I expect the document linked above could help make them easier to understand.

It's been a while since I looked at that document, but I seem to recall that the device driver system supports dynamic loading, without rebooting --- seems like that's what it says on page 6. Like so many things Lisa, pretty impressive if maybe unnecessary for 1983!

[AlexTheCat123]

Naturally I don't know if anyone has ever attempted this, and some of the units referenced in the example code and in the docs are units I don't remember from a standard Workshop install. Fortunately, with the source code release, it may be possible for anyone to build those units for themselves. I haven't investigated this. Of course the OS code itself has source code for device drivers too... I expect the document linked above could help make them easier to understand.

Yep, I can confirm that we have all those units in the source code release and they can all be built pretty easily!

[bmwcyclist]

Would it not make more sense to be able to create something that would work with MAC system six or even better system seven so that you have actual Internet capable software at the ready?

[stepleton]

Opinions will differ on this, but it wouldn't be my cup of tea for a few reasons.

First, I might not understand what you mean, but there are already several options for getting on the Internet with system 6 and system 7 Macs. Some of them work with flavours of MacWorks on the Lisa already. I guess a parallel port transceiver would be faster, but how much does this add to existing options? Probably the Internet experience on a Mac-ified Lisa isn't really affected as much by the connection speed as it is by the other aspects of the computer (small memory, processor speed).

Second, let's say you're talking about something different --- FujiNet isn't just Internet, it's its own system I suppose. If you have a classic Mac with FujiNet and a Lisa running System 6 or 7 with FujiNet... why use the Lisa instead of the Mac SE? The SE will be a bit more compatible with more Mac software, it will be a bit faster, it'll probably have more RAM, it will have square pixels (most Lisas won't) and a screen whose size matches the screens the Mac software developers were familiar with. I think you will have a nicer time with the SE.

Third, a FujiNet driver for the Office System would probably inspire some cool new software developments for the platform. I think we're about to enter an exciting time for 7/7: people are starting to take away interesting findings from the source code release and starting to gain experience with building complicated apps; LisaEm development is continuing (imagine emulated FujiNet?); and some folks are experimenting with AI-assisted coding (which isn't for everyone and doesn't have to be!). One thing though is that there really isn't much of a "target" to shoot for --- if we can make apps, what would we make now? The chance to "open the Office System up to the world" in the context of a networking system tailor-made for retrocomputing: that has a huge novelty factor, and I think it would build a lot of excitement!

That's why I would go for the Office System myself, but it also reflects my interests: I've always been more interested in the Office System and the Workshop (and maybe the Unixes) than I have been in MacWorks. I'd be curious to hear other takes!

[AlexTheCat123]

I tend to agree with Tom here. In my opinion, the Office System is just a lot more interesting and special than MacWorks, and it would be really cool to see thse sorts of capabilities get added to it. And as Tom said, you can already get MacWorks-equipped Lisas on the Internet using other solutions, including SCSI to Ethernet adapters like the DaynaPORT one emulated by BlueSCSI, which is probably faster than anything you could do over the parallel port anyway. So I think it would just be overall more valuable to add this stuff to LOS.

[ried]

Macintosh System 6 (and 7) are rather well-worn paths for huge numbers of people, while Lisa Office System remains undiscovered country. The dearth of third-party development on an otherwise very promising platform makes it ripe for experimentation, IMHO.

[bmwcyclist]

Some interesting replies here.

Some feedback.

1. I did not ask about alternatives to FujiNet; I was asking for driver info for the FujiNet project folks.

2. Maybe someday I will use a MacSE, I do have an Apple ][ that does more with TCP/IP than my Lisa and I would like to close that gap. I am interested in doing real-world work with the Lisa.

3. Yes, a Lisa OS would be cooler. BUT again, if we are to go beyond my question and speculate how I would use it:

- More network apps on Mac OS, such as games.
- FujiNet supports HTTPS (SSL/TLS), This means vintage computers can securely connect to websites that require HTTPS. So far as I am aware, none of the other listed methods will support this, and if they did, processing power might still be an issue. If I am wrong about this, it would be good to know.

4. False Dilemma, surely if there is information, skill, and desire, it could be made to work with many OSes that run on the Lisa.

Thank you for your feedback, if anyone has any additional driver resources please let me know so that I can pass them on.

I have a Dynaport emulator that I hope to get working soon. I think FujiNet would increase the capability and options available as well as future support.