General Category > LisaList2
Deserializing UniPlus UNIX?
rayarachelian:
--- Quote from: blusnowkitty on July 14, 2020, 11:14:46 pm ---Tried to load up the disk images with BLU and among other issues, turns out the SCC in my Lisa has gone bad - it'll rx bits no problem, but it can't tx them and naturally I can't find my other I/O board to try switching the SCC with. I also can't get Disk Copy 4.2 to work in either my Mac 128 or 512ke to write the images there.
--- End quote ---
This is going to be a bit Rube Goldberg right here ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg_machine ):
Does your physical floppy drive work? If so, so do this then: install MacWorks on the hard drive, make a dc42 image with DiskCopy 4.2 and StuffIt and anything else you can think of. Copy that to the hard drive off the floppyemu, transfer the 9 or 10 disks of UniPlus by imaging them with DiskCopy from the floppy emu.
Once everything's on the MacWorks hard drive, shut down the Lisa, switch to the physical floppy, restore the images to real floppies using Disk Copy 4.2, shut down again, install UniPlus to the hard drive.
Future goals: Your life would be much easier if you have something like an X/ProFile because then you can use dd on a linux or macos x machine to image the CF cards using a USB CF card reader. (You can also use SD or mini-SDXC cards with a CF adapter in an X/ProFile), and then you can switch between UniPlus, MacWorks, LOS, etc. by swapping CF or SD media. If you already have one, great, one of us might be able to send you an X/ProFile of a pre-installed UniPlus image instead.
You can always ping Steve Chamberlin about seeing if he can add UniPlus/Xenix support to floppyemu firmware. Most likely it's some timing thing, but presumably this isn't going to be trivial.
If serial port A works, you can try asking James to build a copy of BLU that works at 9600 or maybe 19200 on Serial Port A when he has the time.
Other options, you could buy a replacement I/O board if you can't replace the Z8530 SIO or figure out what traces are broken via corrosion, etc: http://vintagemicros.com/catalog/lisa-lisa-board-from-sapient-tecnologies-p-292.html
You could buy an old classic pre-macos x Mac, even PPC as long as it has a floppy drive like:
* https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Power-Mac-G3-300-PPC-300MHz-384MB-RAM-13GB-HD-Mac-OS9-w-KB-and-Mouse/333649590847
* https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Machintosh-Powerbook-180-MINT/283945176241
* https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Apple-Macintosh-Mac-IIvx-RARE-collectible-Tested-and-Working/254581552271
Even something like a powerbook pismo might work if it has a working floppy drive - but most only have CDROMs (ask the seller before you buy to make sure the floppy drive is functional)
You can then either use ethernet or the CF card slot to transfer stuff like disk images from a modern machine.
Avoid iconic toaster ones like MacSE as they're a lot more expensive.
blusnowkitty:
--- Quote from: rayarachelian on July 15, 2020, 09:33:08 am ---Does your physical floppy drive work? If so, so do this then: install MacWorks on the hard drive, make a dc42 image with DiskCopy 4.2 and StuffIt and anything else you can think of. Copy that to the hard drive off the floppyemu, transfer the 9 or 10 disks of UniPlus by imaging them with DiskCopy from the floppy emu.
Once everything's on the MacWorks hard drive, shut down the Lisa, switch to the physical floppy, restore the images to real floppies using Disk Copy 4.2, shut down again, install UniPlus to the hard drive.
Future goals: Your life would be much easier if you have something like an X/ProFile because then you can use dd on a linux or macos x machine to image the CF cards using a USB CF card reader. (You can also use SD or mini-SDXC cards with a CF adapter in an X/ProFile), and then you can switch between UniPlus, MacWorks, LOS, etc. by swapping CF or SD media. If you already have one, great, one of us might be able to send you an X/ProFile of a pre-installed UniPlus image instead.
You can always ping Steve Chamberlin about seeing if he can add UniPlus/Xenix support to floppyemu firmware. Most likely it's some timing thing, but presumably this isn't going to be trivial.
If serial port A works, you can try asking James to build a copy of BLU that works at 9600 or maybe 19200 on Serial Port A when he has the time.
Other options, you could buy a replacement I/O board if you can't replace the Z8530 SIO or figure out what traces are broken via corrosion, etc: http://vintagemicros.com/catalog/lisa-lisa-board-from-sapient-tecnologies-p-292.html
You could buy an old classic pre-macos x Mac, even PPC as long as it has a floppy drive like:
--- End quote ---
Oh, I can use newer Macs to write out Lisa disks? I was under the impression that the 1.44MB SuperDrive SWIMs couldn't generate the right encoding for Lisa disks. I have far, far too many SuperDrive-enabled Macs so that makes things a bit easier.
I do have an X/ProFile along with a MacWorks CF card, and I also went and got a Sapient I/O board a while back and that's what I'm using in mine. Floppy drive is fully working too. Haven't done any testing on Port A as of yet; I'll give it a shot tonight.
I did somehow manage to get things working just long enough to transfer the root fs image over via serial. Imagine an error rate so high it could only get two bytes every 30 seconds, see picture. Ouch... I also picked up a Mac Plus not too long ago. If it's equipped with a Z8530, I'll likely borrow the SCC out of the Plus and stick it in the Lisa and see what happens.
Amazingly, even though it took forever to transfer BLU said that the dc42 checksum was correct and wrote the root fs disk without issue and... still hangs when it finds serial ports in the installer.
D.Finni:
--- Quote from: blusnowkitty on July 15, 2020, 10:49:37 am ---
--- Quote from: rayarachelian on July 15, 2020, 09:33:08 am ---Does your physical floppy drive work? If so, so do this then: install MacWorks on the hard drive, make a dc42 image with DiskCopy 4.2 and StuffIt and anything else you can think of. Copy that to the hard drive off the floppyemu, transfer the 9 or 10 disks of UniPlus by imaging them with DiskCopy from the floppy emu.
You could buy an old classic pre-macos x Mac, even PPC as long as it has a floppy drive like:
--- End quote ---
Oh, I can use newer Macs to write out Lisa disks? I was under the impression that the 1.44MB SuperDrive SWIMs couldn't generate the right encoding for Lisa disks. I have far, far too many SuperDrive-enabled Macs so that makes things a bit easier.
--- End quote ---
The whole point of the SuperDrive is that it can read and write anything! :P
Use Disk Copy 4.2 on any Macintosh with 1 MB or more of RAM, and you can write Lisa disk images to disk.
rayarachelian:
--- Quote from: blusnowkitty on July 15, 2020, 10:49:37 am ---Oh, I can use newer Macs to write out Lisa disks? I was under the impression that the 1.44MB SuperDrive SWIMs couldn't generate the right encoding for Lisa disks. I have far, far too many SuperDrive-enabled Macs so that makes things a bit easier.
--- End quote ---
Yes, yes you can. I think there's some issue with formatting over floppies that were already used on a Lisa because the r/w head is much wider than the one in the superdrive so it may leave some data behind that the larger head will see that the narrower head will not. But you can solve that with a degausser. I think
--- Quote from: blusnowkitty on July 15, 2020, 10:49:37 am ---I do have an X/ProFile along with a MacWorks CF card, and I also went and got a Sapient I/O board a while back and that's what I'm using in mine. Floppy drive is fully working too. Haven't done any testing on Port A as of yet; I'll give it a shot tonight.
--- End quote ---
Well. There you go then.
But, if you got a Sapient I/O card, it's SIO should be working, if it's not contact John and see about getting another - that is once you swap it and find the old one was at fault, and not something else.
Also BLU will not use serial port A at all. You'd have to use ZTerm in macworks and then DiskCopy 4.2 in macworks to use port a.
--- Quote from: blusnowkitty on July 15, 2020, 10:49:37 am ---I did somehow manage to get things working just long enough to transfer the root fs image over via serial. Imagine an error rate so high it could only get two bytes every 30 seconds, see picture. Ouch... I also picked up a Mac Plus not too long ago. If it's equipped with a Z8530, I'll likely borrow the SCC out of the Plus and stick it in the Lisa and see what happens.
Amazingly, even though it took forever to transfer BLU said that the dc42 checksum was correct and wrote the root fs disk without issue and... still hangs when it finds serial ports in the installer.
--- End quote ---
There's bunches of Z8530's on ebay, (I just searched for "Zilog 8530") but ofc, no guarantee that they're functioning, still they're around $15-20 each, so might be worth a gamble if swapping with the MacPlus one works. It could also be other components on the I/O board, motherboard, or even the serial cable.
I've had a weird experience using an FTDI quad serial USB adapter and a Linux laptop running Minicom and connecting to BLU. Without a null modem adapter, whenever it sends something to the Lisa, it receives garbage, so it looks like it's sort of working, but it isn't. Maybe you could try adding an inline null modem adapter and see if that helps - perhaps your USB adapter - if that's what you're using, has some logic in it to implement that internally but it doesn't quite work right. But from your screenshot, I don't think that's the issue - looks like a very noisy connection.
If you have another computer you can transfer from, I'd also try that.
You could also use the MacPlus to make disk images into disks. :)
If your Lisa is a real 2/10 maybe that's why the floppyemu doesn't work right, I've noticed that kind of an issue myself when trying to install LOS from the floppyemu to a Widget. In my case it booted the LOS installer disk just fine and erased the widget, but after that it kept failing when copying disk 2 and beyond randomly.
Also since you have an X/ProFile, I have some good news for you, once I'm done with the CPU tests, I'll add X/ProFile image support to LisaEm, so you'll be able to use it too - well, not for UniPlus, but for LOS at least and there'll be some tools to convert to dc42.
John also sold the Quad Serial Port card with a set of UniPlus and Xenix preinstalled CF cards, so that's also another option since you have an X/ProFile.
blusnowkitty:
I've been using some old Prolific USB-RS232 adapters before and they were working great with my Lisa until recently. Still works fine for PC to PC transfers; I'm not convinced it's the adapter - though I have heard that USB-RS232 adapters generate lower voltage data pulses than a "real" RS-232 port puts out. I have tons of 486 and Pentium PCs so that might be worth exploring at some point.
As far as the MacWorks + Floppy Emu idea - tried that, but when trying to write back to a real diskette Disk Copy immediately errored out with -17. It could still be weird Floppy Emu emulation tripping me up though - if it won't boot UniPlus right, will it even read the DC42 images right?
Pulled the Mac Plus apart and it's got the AMD variant of the Z8530. It should still be compatible thanks to the rule of second-sourcing from back in the day, I'm just not really looking forward to desoldering all those pins and fighting with the ground plane stealing my iron heat. Bleh.
Dropping the $350 on that quad serial board is pretty tempting. We'll see... Looks like it's gone out of stock on VintageMicros right now.
As a side note, is Office System kernel known to dump debug messages onto the desktop when something goes really wrong? I got the attached on my desktop after recovering from a failed shutdown. Weird part is, when the message appeared it shifted my desktop up one line as if the graphical shell was just another text element. It worked fine after the message appeared and dragging a window around to force a redraw got rid of the weird graphical corruption issue. I also remember reading an article about how the Lisa devs would press a special key combo and it would switch from Office System to some text-mode debug console. Weird stuff.
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