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Author Topic: Another Prototype Lisa Card  (Read 1449 times)

compu_85

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2020, 03:00:18 pm »

Do we know what software was used with these cards? I assume it's not the normal LisaTest?

-J
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rayarachelian

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2020, 04:59:27 pm »

I ended up getting the parallel port card... amazingly the seller took best offers.

I hope whoever gets the floppies is able to make images, and shares them with the rest of the class...

I was able to pick up the IO Port Test card too... which has its rom present. I'll back it up as soon as I can.

Do we know where the flying clip leads hook up?

I've been wanting one of the test cards for some time, and within a week I've gotten two of them :o

The seller also had a loopback plug for the serial ports. That's still in the mail, I'll post pictures once it arrives. This was the listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-APPLE-COMPUTERS-1982-SERIAL-PORT-TEST-CARD-SK1406-00-APPLE-ENGINEER/293628746220

High res picture of the cards: https://i.imgur.com/LYntDsn.jpg


I think I remember back when I first started on LisaEm that I disassembled the code around the test loopback cable, it basically wants to link the xmit on port a to rcv on port b and vice versa, or perhaps within each port, don't recall, i.e. xmit on port a went to receive on port a, xmit on port b went to receive on port b, not sure about the hardware handshaking wires. Wasn't much of a complex thing at all. I can look at the LisaEm code if anyone's curious about it.

Edit: yeah, it should be sending data from port a to port b and vice versa:

Code: [Select]
void write_serial_port_loopbackplug(unsigned int port, char data) {DEBUG_LOG(0,"wrote %02x to port %d",data,port); fliflo_buff_add(&SCC_READ[(!port)&1],data & scc_bits_per_char_mask[(!port)&1]);}

The photos I see in the ebay listing. however, seem to loop from port A to port A, and from port B to port B - that is pins 2,3 are connected to each other.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 07:07:34 pm by rayarachelian »
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compu_85

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2020, 06:44:47 pm »

Here are the pictures of the serial test plug. Interestingly, port A has more pins looped back than port B.
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compu_85

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2020, 08:42:34 pm »

Here is the dump from the 2716 on the test card.

There's this string at the end: AWAITING APPLE INPUT Rev 1.1
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 08:44:50 pm by compu_85 »
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compu_85

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2020, 09:10:05 pm »

It appears to be bootable, though it fails with an error 93 when I try it in my 2/10 and 2/5.

One interesting tidbit: The system turns on as soon as power is applied when the card is installed.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 09:47:37 pm by compu_85 »
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rayarachelian

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2020, 09:20:32 am »

It appears to be bootable, though it fails with an error 93 when I try it in my 2/10 and 2/5.

One interesting tidbit: The system turns on as soon as power is applied when the card is installed.

Interesting, so I wonder how it's signalling to the COPS to turn on immediately. Could you try to use BLU to dump the expansion slot ROM for that card and upload here?
93 is just a generic "other card problem".

I wonder what the 2 in the "IO2" means, is it in slot 2?
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compu_85

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2020, 09:35:40 am »

The ROM is attached to the post above.

I'm assuming this is Version 2 of the card? The icon doesn't change with the slot the car is installed in. The ROM sticker has B XXX-XXX5 written on it.

The COP is a COP421-HZT/N. Is that one of the mask rom versions?

-J
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patrick

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2020, 10:34:08 am »

I'm assuming this is Version 2 of the card? The icon doesn't change with the slot the car is installed in. The ROM sticker has B XXX-XXX5 written on it.

The icons are static bitmaps inside the ROM. You cannot modify them at runtime.

Quote
The COP is a COP421-HZT/N. Is that one of the mask rom versions?

HZT indicates the ROM code. This is the Lisa I/O COP. KPK would be the Widget motor controller ROM.


+5STBY is available at the expansion port, but the ON and /PWRSW signals are not. The only thing that could trigger the COP421 would by a temporary short (or overload) on the +5STBY line while +5B (the battery voltage) is present.


Patrick
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compu_85

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2020, 11:50:56 am »

Hm. In 2 different systems (one with an Apple power supply, one with a DataPower supply), the IO Test card being installed causes it to power up as soon as power is applied. If the system tries to shut down, it resets instead of powering off.

The +5VSTBY line is connected to the cathode of CR17, and the right most pin of Q1. The anode of CR17 connects to the anode of C13, the cathode of C13 is connected to ground. I'll trace out the rest of the circuit later.

J4 only has Pin3 connected. It goes back to a gate on the LS03 near the COP, the 2 inputs to that gate come from pins 15 and 16 on the COP which according to the datasheet are a serial input, and serial output pin.

High res pictures available here: https://imgur.com/a/BRZJVGD

I have yet to try the card with the load resistors. I might try it on my 2/10 after unplugging the Widget. I'm reluctant to modify an original card, and there's no way to unhook the resistors without cutting or desoldering.

Thanks,

-J
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 11:52:44 am by compu_85 »
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stepleton

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2020, 08:14:31 pm »

There's this string at the end: AWAITING APPLE INPUT Rev 1.1

Just glancing at the ROM, I think the string is two strings, since there's a null terminator in between them. The first string being in ALL CAPS suggests that the boot ROM's "display message" routine was used to show that on the display, and sure enough, you can find 4eb9 00fe 0088 (JSR #$FE0088 ; call the display message routine) elsewhere in the hex.

The phrase "AWAITING APPLE INPUT" is interesting, since in the Monitor (and elsewhere?), an "Apple" usually referred to an Apple II that was part of the development workstation (see e.g. Page 6 of this Monitor manual). So maybe another computer was involved somehow.

Page 86 of the manual describes a LISATEST program (presumably different from the LisaTest most of us know) that contains an "Apple-Lisa Interface Test". The description:

Quote
The Interface Test attempts to use the parallel port interface between the Apple II and the Lisa to verify that the two systems can communicate with each other.

Based on the Page 6 diagram, though, I think the Apple talked to the Lisa through the Lisa's own parallel port.

Or wait, maybe not... These release notes for the earlier 11.6 Monitor talk about "an Apple PIA card". (Note that when the docs talk about a "Built-In Profile", I think they mean the internal parallel port, not Widget; also, I think an "I/O port" is a logical numbering scheme within the Monitor and not the expansion slots.)

Now I'm starting to wonder if this is what the rudimentary parallel port card that started this thread was all about---maybe that's an Apple PIA card we're looking at. It fits the story in a way---they would have needed to have the PIA card from very early on, so it makes sense for it to be uncomplicated. One could examine the Monitor source code to see if the code for talking to the Apple is compatible with the very simple card we see in blusnowkitty's pictures.

Anyway, my reason for going down this road was to wonder whether one of the connectors on the I/O test card may have been for talking to the Apple. I'm starting to think not, so the question remains---in AWAITING APPLE INPUT, who is the APPLE, what is it saying, and how does the test card get the message? I guess the real thing to do is disassemble that ROM data and find out :-)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 08:16:46 pm by stepleton »
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stepleton

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2020, 08:36:55 pm »

Oh, and---those flying leads? I have a guess:

The ADC0808 near the port connecting to the flying leads is, well, an ADC, so I'm guessing that it was used to monitor certain important analog voltages in the Lisa, particularly ones that were close at hand---that is, on the I/O board. I'd bet that one of those leads would have clipped onto the screen contrast signal at one of the component legs (I don't think the I/O board had dedicated test points). Perhaps another was for the speaker volume or maybe the speaker itself. It would be interesting to know if one of the leads was ground, which would seem sensible.
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compu_85

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2020, 06:48:40 pm »

I moved the ROM back to the card with the resistors and tried it out (briefly). It seems like the system tries to boot from it, then fails with an error 90 and some garbage on the screen.

Hers's a shaky cam video of the attempt on my 2/10, which the attached photo is a still from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UWtrU27sI0

The system does spend longer on the IO card test portion of the POST.

Also interesting is that the system comes up with a keyboard error when the IO Test card is installed. Like the first card, the system comes on as soon as power is applied.
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compu_85

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2020, 06:52:32 pm »

The card acts a little different in my 2/5. It's able to draw the AWAITING APPLE INPUT prompt on the screen for just an instant, before the error 90 box covers it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq2qejCCl6M

Same keyboard error, same auto start when power is applied.

-J
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Lisa2

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2020, 09:08:52 am »

Oh, and---those flying leads? I have a guess:

The ADC0808 near the port connecting to the flying leads is, well, an ADC, so I'm guessing that it was used to monitor certain important analog voltages in the Lisa, particularly ones that were close at hand---that is, on the I/O board. I'd bet that one of those leads would have clipped onto the screen contrast signal at one of the component legs (I don't think the I/O board had dedicated test points). Perhaps another was for the speaker volume or maybe the speaker itself. It would be interesting to know if one of the leads was ground, which would seem sensible.

Did you ever wonder why the 2/10 I/O board has a little socket next to the SCC? Maybe this is a clue to these signals....
Rick
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stepleton

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Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2020, 11:23:13 am »

Did you ever wonder why the 2/10 I/O board has a little socket next to the SCC? Maybe this is a clue to these signals....

I was wondering about that---this is actually the reason I was asking whether the black lead (attached to pin 1 of the ribbon cable) was ground :-)

Looking at the I/O board schematics on lisa.sunder.net, the files for the Lisa 1 and Lisa 2/10 boards both have the same analog circuits section, just with different labels:
https://lisaem.sunder.net/LisaSchem/Lisa1SysIO5.gif
https://lisaem.sunder.net/LisaSchem/Lisa210SysIO5.gif

They mention a J1 that appears to be a 10-pin connector, perhaps the same 10-pin connector you find on the 2/10 I/O board. (I'm too lazy to beep it out this afternoon :-). (There's also another J1 that gets referenced at the top left---that's the card-edge connector at the bottom of the board.) Instead of being ground, though, pin 1 of J1 is connected to some of the analog circuitry for the contrast latch signal.

It's possible that the ribbon cable has been plugged into the test card upside-down, but in that case I think the "pin 1" line goes to an unconnected J1 pin, according to the schematic.
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