LisaList2

Advanced search  

News:

2019.06.07 fixed NChat for the "Curve" theme, will eventually move it to its own page and add it to the default theme as well. Other plugins are next. see post in the Meta board for details

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Another Prototype Lisa Card  (Read 1450 times)

stepleton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +38/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 103
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2020, 11:24:39 am »

Ha, looking back I see that I hedged a bit and asked whether any of the leads was ground, but I was especially curious about the black one.
Logged

stepleton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +38/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 103
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2020, 07:47:14 pm »

This evening I removed the (soldered, with the VCC pin attached to an enormous fill that sucked away all the heat) ROM from the DMA test card (picture attached) and dumped it. This ROM has even less nonzero data than the IO test card ROM. I've attached the binary data, but here is a hex dump of all of it (the * stands in for rows of all $00 bytes):

The first several bytes of an expansion card ROM are a special description data structure described on page 3-17 of the Lisa hardware manual. $B002 means

$B = it's a bootable test card with an icon
$002 = The card's ID is 2.

Note that the IO test card's ROM had the card code $F001. The extra on bit in $F means the card has a "status program" that the ROM executes whenever (I think) it's doing the I/O card test and also when you select the card for booting (according to the manual).

Irrelevant play-by-play tangent if you're interested:
The next word ($3FD) is how many bytes the boot ROM should use when computing the checksum of this data (and for my ROM, the checksum had better match the literal last word, $8262). $4E75 is the entire "status program" for this ROM, which the ROM already politely told the Lisa not to call, but if it does, $4E75 is the RTS instruction, so no harm done. $6002 is what the Lisa initially executes when it wishes to boot from this card, and that's BRA.S $06, or jump past the icon pointer $0295 and some other data and carry on from $00000010, if I'm not mistaken.

Reverse-engineering the rest from disassembly is probably not the hardest thing in the world to do. Of course, note the AWAITING APPLE INPUT string at the bottom, too.

I guess I should stick this card in a Lisa and see what happens. I expect it won't differ much from what the I/O test card does.

00000000: b002 03fd 4e75 6002 0295 2e7c 0000 0380  ....Nu`....|....
00000010: 41fa ffee 43fa 07e8 247c 0000 0380 34d8  A...C...$|....4.
00000020: b3c8 66fa 2038 02a4 e088 ee88 33c0 00fc  ..f. 8......3...
00000030: e800 42b8 0110 7a0a 7c01 47fa 029c 4eb9  ..B...z.|.G...N.
00000040: 00fe 0088 41fa ffba 43fa 000c 93c8 d3fc  ....A...C.......
00000050: 0000 0380 4ed1 6014 008c 0148 0178 0126  ....N.`....H.x.&
00000060: 0148 0178 01be 01a4 01fa 01e0 2c7c 0000  .H.x........,|..
00000070: 0380 2a7c 00fc a001 49fa 0006 6000 0036  ..*|....I...`..6
00000080: 6000 000a 45fa 0006 6000 004a 4287 45fa  `...E...`..JB.E.
00000090: 0006 6000 0050 49fa 0006 6000 01d8 4600  ..`..PI...`...F.
000000a0: 0c00 0009 62e6 0240 00ff d040 3236 0058  ....b..@...@26.X
000000b0: 4ef6 1000 422d 0004 422d 0006 4215 1b7c  N...B-..B-..B..|
000000c0: 00ff 0002 1b7c 0024 0004 1b7c 0024 0006  .....|.$...|.$..
000000d0: 4a15 4ed4 4a2d 0006 6afa 4a2d 0002 1b40  J.N.J-..j.J-...@
000000e0: 0002 4ed2 4a2d 0004 6afa 1015 4ed2 4280  ..N.J-..j...N.B.
000000f0: 45fa 0004 60ee e148 45fa 0004 60e6 e188  E...`..HE...`...
00000100: 45fa 0004 60de e188 45fa 0004 60d6 2040  E...`...E...`. @
00000110: 4ed4 4280 45fa 0004 60ca e148 45fa 0004  N.B.E...`..HE...
00000120: 60c2 2200 4ed4 49fa 0006 6000 00e8 4e90  `.".N.I...`...N.
00000130: 2e7c 0000 0380 2c7c 0000 0380 2a7c 00fc  .|....,|....*|..
00000140: a001 4280 6000 ff3e 49fa 0006 6000 00c6  ..B.`..>I...`...
00000150: 4287 5341 6500 0016 1018 49fa 0006 6000  B.SAe.....I...`.
00000160: 0114 45fa 0006 6000 ff6c 60e6 49fa 0006  ..E...`..l`.I...
00000170: 6000 010c 6000 ff16 49fa 0006 6000 0096  `...`...I...`...
00000180: 4287 5341 65e6 45fa 0006 6000 ff58 1080  B.SAe.E...`..X..
00000190: b1fc 00fc 0000 6402 1018 49fa 0006 6000  ......d...I...`.
000001a0: 00d4 60de 49fa 0006 6000 ff44 49fa 0006  ..`.I...`..DI...
000001b0: 6000 ff60 1010 5341 66fa 6000 fec8 49fa  `..`..SAf.`...I.
000001c0: 0006 6000 ff2a 49fa 0006 6000 ff46 45fa  ..`..*I...`..FE.
000001d0: 0006 6000 ff10 1080 5341 66fa 6000 fea6  ..`.....SAf.`...
000001e0: 49fa 0006 6000 ff08 49fa 0006 6000 ff24  I...`...I...`..$
000001f0: 4a58 5341 66fa 6000 fe8c 49fa 0006 6000  JXSAf.`...I...`.
00000200: feee 49fa 0006 6000 ff0a 30c8 5341 66fa  ..I...`...0.SAf.
00000210: 6000 fe72 264c 49fa 0006 6000 fed2 49fa  `..r&LI...`...I.
00000220: 0006 6000 feee 4280 2408 7608 7804 e7ba  ..`...B.$.v.x...
00000230: 1002 49fa 0006 6000 003c 5344 66f0 4282  ..I...`..<SDf.B.
00000240: 3401 e67a 1002 49fa 0006 6000 0028 e77a  4..z..I...`..(.z
00000250: 1002 49fa 0006 6000 001c 49fa 0006 6000  ..I...`...I...`.
00000260: 001e 45fa 0006 6000 fe7c 4a00 6600 fe1e  ..E...`..|J.f...
00000270: 284b 4ed4 0240 00ff de40 e35f 4ed4 3007  (KN..@...@._N.0.
00000280: 45fa 0006 6000 fe4e e048 45fa 0006 6000  E...`..N.HE...`.
00000290: fe44 4ed4 0081 0298 ffff ffe1 01ff ff80  .DN.............
000002a0: fcff ffdf 40f7 c03d 8007 70cf 0890 ff3c  ....@..=..p....<
000002b0: 0810 0410 cf03 e0f3 725e 3c39 8c01 8cdf  ........r^<9....
000002c0: 0cfb 38fc 7252 df03 63ea ad80 013c c006  ..8.rR..c....<..
000002d0: 1550 cf3f f8ff ffff 4157 4149 5449 4e47  .P.?....AWAITING
000002e0: 2041 5050 4c45 2049 4e50 5554 0000 0000   APPLE INPUT....
*
000007f0: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 8262  ...............b
Logged

stepleton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +38/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 103
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2020, 08:55:39 pm »

Unfortunately a bit of an anticlimax in the Lisa, since data bit 5 is stuck high. I don't think that this is due to my desoldering the ROM, but it's possible. If I'm honest, I just forgot that BLU could dump expansion card ROMs, which is a bit embarrassing. A bit of probing will find out for sure.

A look at the ROM data from BLU showed the problem. The DMA test card is not so complicated and it won't be too hard to find replacements for most of the chips if necessary. (It might not be---there are a few scratches on the card, and maybe one of them has bridged a pair of traces somewhere.) So, another project for the project pile.
Logged

compu_85

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +11/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2020, 09:54:31 am »

I messaged the seller about the software collection, they said the lowest they would take is $500 for the lot. Too right for my blood..
Logged

blusnowkitty

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +28/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2020, 09:13:36 am »

I messaged the seller about the software collection, they said the lowest they would take is $500 for the lot. Too right for my blood..

This the big lot of Apple II/III, Twiggy, and cassette tapes?
Logged
You haven't lived until you've heard the sound of a Sony 400k drive.

compu_85

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +11/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2020, 09:16:34 am »

Yes.
Logged

blusnowkitty

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +28/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2020, 11:54:01 am »

I'm young and I have nothing to live for... Does anyone know if ADTPro on an Apple II can dump Apple III disks? I'd assume so since I've heard Disk ][ drives can work unmodified on a III with an adapter cable, but you know what they say about assuming.

Logged
You haven't lived until you've heard the sound of a Sony 400k drive.

stepleton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +38/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 103
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2020, 12:19:00 pm »

Wow, good luck!

We have from here that "ADTPro can even write disks for the Apple III", so I'm guessing it ought to be able to read them, too.
Logged

rayarachelian

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +14/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 324
  • "But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game"
    • LisaEm
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2020, 01:41:57 pm »

I'm young and I have nothing to live for... Does anyone know if ADTPro on an Apple II can dump Apple III disks? I'd assume so since I've heard Disk ][ drives can work unmodified on a III with an adapter cable, but you know what they say about assuming.

Liar! You've got plenty to live for, such as Lisas, UniPlus on Lisas, rare prototype cards, Apple ///'s. I mean, what else is there?
After all: https://github.com/rayarachelian/lisaem/blob/a4a7fb1bcc68132f754e8e089012f76e43342c78/src/host/wxui/lisaem_wx.cpp#L8672
Code: [Select]
  "Conan, what is best in life? To emulate LOS, see your documents driven before you, and hear the lamentation of Windows.",
Logged
Fate whispers to the warrior, 'You can not withstand the storm.'  The warrior whispers back, 'I am the storm.'

snuci

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +7/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2020, 10:10:38 pm »

I messaged the seller about the software collection, they said the lowest they would take is $500 for the lot. Too right for my blood..

This the big lot of Apple II/III, Twiggy, and cassette tapes?

FYI, I bought the Apple II/III, Twiggy and Fluke tape lot.  As noted in the original eBay auction via the desk name plate, it was from Ed Goodwin.  Ed was an engineer at Apple and can be seen in these pictures from Digibarn here with the Lisa Development unit. http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/apple-lisa1/index.html

Among the pictures is an internal Profile drive.  In another auction from the same seller, I acquired a prototype internal 5MB Profile controller and mounting plate.  I think I may have been able to make a complete internal Profile with this controller and a normal Profile in parts but sadly, the package was lost a few weeks ago in transit and it is gone forever.   A picture of the Profile controller is attached.  Clearly, this never made it as a product as I have only ever seen one other.

Anyway, I have an Applesauce disk archiving unit so I will try to archive the 5.25" floppies depending on what they look like when they arrive.  I also purchased some hard drives from the Ed Goodwin collection so I'll take a look at those soon and see if there is anything interesting.  Hopefully there is something we can use.  I can also try to use Blu on the Twiggy floppies to archive the two of them as well.  I don't know what to do with the Fluke tapes.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 10:12:26 pm by snuci »
Logged

Lisa2

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
  • See why 1983 was more like Y2K...
    • Lisa2.com
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2020, 11:35:14 am »

Here's some more interesting stuff that seller has put up...
Only known surviving copy of WidEx? https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-APPLE-COMPUTERS-WIDGET-STATUS-MONITOR-CARD-DISKETTE-LISA-1985/303595450646

I currently have possession of the Apple /// Widget test disk (WidEx) and monitor card from this auction.  The disk is good.



Rick
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 11:45:00 am by Lisa2 »
Logged

blusnowkitty

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +28/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2020, 12:24:53 pm »

It may not be Lisa WideX but the fact that any version of WideX survived is amazing!
Logged
You haven't lived until you've heard the sound of a Sony 400k drive.

patrick

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +28/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 35
    • Patrick's Hardware Page
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2020, 01:17:06 pm »

Oops -- I thougth this was already on bitsavers? I have uploaded my versions to the files section, https://lisalist2.com/index.php/topic,105.msg691.html#msg691. Apple /// WidEx provided the name for my UsbWidEx project http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/patrick/UsbWidEx.htm.

Your version seems to be three weeks younger than mine. Glad to see this!


BTW: I have never heard of a Lisa-based version of WidEx. Except for NeoWidEx https://github.com/stepleton/NeoWidEx of course  :) . As far as I know Apple's Disk Group worked with Apple /// systems.


« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 01:20:55 pm by patrick »
Logged

blusnowkitty

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +28/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 74
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2020, 05:36:51 pm »

BTW: I have never heard of a Lisa-based version of WidEx. Except for NeoWidEx https://github.com/stepleton/NeoWidEx of course  :) . As far as I know Apple's Disk Group worked with Apple /// systems.

I was under the impression there was a WideX for Lisa based on http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/apple/disk/widget/Widex_May84.pdf which admittedly, even that is based on the mentions of "pulldown menus" a couple times in the document.
Logged
You haven't lived until you've heard the sound of a Sony 400k drive.

stepleton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +38/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 103
Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2020, 06:35:11 pm »

Oh how fantastic to see all of this software and material emerge! Thanks to all of you for saving these items.

If these Widex copies become more available in a public place (since the LisaList2 files section requires a login), I'll update https://github.com/stepleton/NeoWidEx#other-notes , which says there aren't any "readily available" copies today. :)

Has anyone seen anything Applenet-related in this collection of auctioned materials? I am slowly beginning to investigate my Applenet cards again. It's probably an off-and-on thing, but it would be nice to have more hardware to make progress, particularly one of these hubs. I don't think it's very complicated inside.

@snuci, I am gradually building up some techniques for recovering data from mouldy Twiggy disks. If the condition of your own disks seems dubious, we can share what we know.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up