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 on: Yesterday at 09:23:15 pm 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by blusnowkitty
02831620256   00104204         blusnowkitty   chassis and CPU don't match; S/N is in ROM format

So, either I bought this 2/10 from you, or the vsrom that's installed came from a shared source (VintageMicros, perhaps)? It's possible this thing came to me with a 3A ROM and that's what I had on-hand, I don't recall!

That's probably the VintageMicros ROM - I know I've never had a 2/10 (but I need one for a project!) and I legit could not remember if I installed the VintageMicros ROM in mine or not. Now to figure out what happened to my original ROM...

 on: Yesterday at 06:15:16 pm 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by jamesdenton
Alright, I can't find the sticker for my 2/10 and my attempt to reverse engineer the serial has turned up a match in the spreadsheet already :D

yy  ddd  uuuu  ppp  nnnnn
83  162  0256  001  04204

I think this comes out to:

SN: A31620256, Applenet: 00104204, Date: 3162

Here's what I see in the spreadsheet:

02831620256   00104204         blusnowkitty   chassis and CPU don't match; S/N is in ROM format

So, either I bought this 2/10 from you, or the vsrom that's installed came from a shared source (VintageMicros, perhaps)? It's possible this thing came to me with a 3A ROM and that's what I had on-hand, I don't recall!

 on: Yesterday at 05:56:46 pm 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by jamesdenton
One more for you:

SN: A3321293, AppleNet: 00107035, MFG: 3321 - This is a 2/5 currently listed on eBay (

 on: Yesterday at 04:55:57 pm 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by stepleton
Here's my Lisa 1:

    Serial number: B08B831590504
    Applenet number: 00102905
    Manufactured: 83159

And my Lisa 2/10:

    Serial number: A3257425
    Applenet number: 00106191
    Manufactured: 3257

In the spreadsheet, I suspect the serial number for a CHM machine listed as "808B831990176" is probably "B08B831990176". The B looks a lot like an 8 on my Lisa 1; maybe an artifact of the machine they used to make those labels.

 on: Yesterday at 03:37:37 pm 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by jamesdenton
SN: B08B820200058, AppleNet: 00100067, MFG: 82020 - This is not mine, but one I was tracking a few years ago. From 68kmla.

 on: Yesterday at 10:55:52 am 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by jamesdenton
Another from eBay:

SN: A3334145, AppleNet: 00108638, MFG: 3334 - This is a 2/5 currently listed on eBay (

 on: Yesterday at 10:45:34 am 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by jamesdenton
From the Lisa recently mentioned here (by mjposner) - not mine:

SN: A4283098, AppleNet: 00106226, MFG: 4283 - This is the 2/10 recently sold by mjposner on eBay (

 on: Yesterday at 10:15:28 am 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by jamesdenton
I have 3 Lisa's at home, but only two are easily accessible at the moment, so I'll return with information on the 3rd later.

SN: A3195247, AppleNet: 00102880, MFG: 3195 - Bought in 2018 off eBay from a seller in the US that brought it back from Germany years ago. This is a 2/5 with a 1A 220V power supply and German keyboard.

SN: A3165051, AppleNet: 00102513, MFG: 3165 - Bought in 2017 off eBay from a seller in the US, likely a member of this forum (or at least Google Groups). This is a 2/5 with a 1A 110V power supply and US English keyboard.

 on: May 09, 2021, 11:46:05 pm 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by blusnowkitty
...Well, maybe not.

 on: May 09, 2021, 10:52:20 am 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by rayarachelian
There's a number of serial numbers in the sheet that share the same manufacturing date, and both serial numbers and AppleNet numbers are exactly sequential between both B serials and A serials. So far the only time we've had a manufacturing date difference is Date 4158 and 4159, and there's a difference of 349 AppleNet numbers between the last recorded 4158 and the first (and so far, only) 4159 number.

Right so that's the highest delta we saw so far, so that's useful as a data point in saying that they might have built about 350/day at the high end. We don't know if that was sustained or bursty. We do see a bunch more deltas around 150 between days.

The Lisa was introduced January 19, 1983 and discontinued mid 1985. That gives us 2 years. I'd assume only a few units were available at launch time and likely weren't all ready to ship yet, perhaps the software had bugs and needed patching, etc.

Presumably the factories were shared making Apple ]['s, Lisas, and Macs, but it's possible they were dedicated due to the need to reconfigure the machinery. So if we figure the factory worked M-F year around for ~3 years, at maximum they would have made 52 weeks * 5 days * 350 machines/day: 91000 machines/year, easily over 273K in a maximum of 3 years. Even at half of that, 52*5*150=39,000 machines/year, or 117K over 3 years.

So there's the a potential that 100K Lisas might have been made. Possibly this is where that number came from. But it doesn't take a lot into account. What was the lead time to build all the parts before putting them together, they'd obviously need enough stock for a complete Lisa to assemble one and then test it for a few hours before packing it up into a box. Lots of PCB making, drilling, pick and place, plastic molding, and then assembly. Most of that was done by humans. I would guess a single Lisa would take several days from parts to ready to ship.

Likely most were made in the first few weeks, and they'd keep making them until they needed to build some other machine. At some point, they decided to retrofit from Lisa 1 to Lisa 2, this likely occurred sometime in Aug-Dec 1983, so very early on. - sadly undated. Not sure if the 29-0505 means it happened in May or this is just some coincidental document number. So around there, they would have made enough upgrade kits to match all the Lisa 1s they made, and then continued to change their own stock of I/O boards and faceplates, and then started to make new ones. says it's August 1983.

The Lisa 2/10 was introduced with the Mac in Jan 1984, so it was designed and built at the mid-end of 1983. Possibly right after the Twiggy->Sony upgrade.
Looking at the ROM source code, it contains useful dates of various events:

  • "Rich Castro  7/30/81 - Version 0.0 released to manufacturing" - so we know around this time they likely started building prototypes.
  • 4/8/82  - Release version 1.00 - likely this was the "A" ROM, so most likely now is when Lisa production is starting up
  • 5/21/82 - Release version 1.02
  • 6/14/82 - Release version 1.04
  • 7/16/82 - Create version 1.05
  • 7/19/82 - Create version 1.06
  • 7/20/82 - Release version 1.07
  • 8/30/82 - Add auto boot from Applenet <- interesting data point - which means they had AppleNet working well enough to boot from at this point
  • 9/10/82 - Create and do internal release of new ROM versions 0.25, 1.16 and 2.01
  • 9/14/82 - Create and release ROM versions 0.26, 1.17 and 2.02. - looks like they were working on parallel Lisae at this point
  • 10/9/82 - Create version 2.03 - this is version "C" of the ROM
  • 10/12/82 - Create and release version 2.04. -
  • 11/9/82  - Create version 2.07
  • 11/19/82 -  Release versions 2.08 (internal) and 2.09 (for manufacturing)
  • 5/9/83  - 1)Change ROM id display to rev # (D) (CHG001) -  this is the "D" ROM - pretty common with Lisa 1s and also 2's - can boot from both twiggy and Sony but shows both drives in the menu with twiggy icons, so likely no Sony support yet.
  • 5/12/83 -  Create and release rev D of boot ROM.
  • 8/8/83  -  Add changes for Pepsi system:   (CHG009) - so here we go, a bit before this is when they decided to switch to 400K Sony drives.
Code: [Select]
0000|                       ;                                           1) New icons.0000|                       ;                                           2) Display of icons with id #'s.
0000|                       ;                                8/9/83  -  Add save of disk ROM id in low memory. (CHG010)0000|                       ;                                           Add fixes for:
0000|                       ;                                           1) SCC init for Applebus.  (CHG011) - interesting - AppleTalk?
0000|                       ;                                           2) Test card boot search.  (CHG012)
  • 10/10/83 - 1)Make Pepsi icon changes.  (CHG024) -
  • 10/20/83 - Release as rev E for Lisa and Pepsi systems. - this was never released as far as I know
  • 12/21/83 - Release as official rev 'F' for all systems - this is the first release for Sony drives and pretty common. The final one will be "H" (before the 3A)
  • 2/7/84   - 1)Extend hard disk default read timeout to 16 - so at this point the 2/10s are being readied.
Code: [Select]
0000|                       ;                                             seconds for Widget systems. (CHG037)0000|                       ;                                           2)Add delay after hard disk reset for Widget
0000|                       ;                                             systems. (CHG038)
  • 2/8/84   - Release as rev G for testing
  • 2/24/84  - Release as official rev H - this is right after the Jan 24 "1984" announcement, so they would have shipped this later.
So most likely sometime around 2/7/84 I'd expect the factories to have switched to making 2/10s and using the left over stock for the remaining 2/5s.

This means they weren't sure that the sales would have failed or not as they didn't cancel the 2/10s. So that decision came after mid 1984. This NYT article describes overall sales/profit, but no breakdown by machine type, only says the consumers lost interest in the Apple ][s:
Apple Computer Inc., battling a fierce downturn in personal computers as well as problems in its own ranks, said yesterday that it was laying off 1,200 employees, more than a fifth of its work force.

In a terse statement from John Sculley, president and chief executive, who consolidated his position atop the company in a reorganization two weeks ago, Apple also said that it expected a loss from write-offs in its third quarter, ending in June.

Apple spokesmen said they could not estimate the size of the loss, but sources close to the company predicted that the pretax write-offs could total as much as $30 million, giving the company an after-tax loss of $12 million to $18 million. Last quarter, the company earned $10 million, on sales of $435.3 million. ''We expect these steps to significantly reduce the break-even point of the company,'' Mr. Sculley said in the statement.

And this one:
In a move aimed both at streamlining Apple and moving it out of the shadow of its co-founder, Steven P. Jobs, the company announced a corporate restructuring that does away with its two separate product divisions, in favor of manufacturing and marketing divisions responsible for all Apple products.

The restructuring eliminates the day-to-day operating responsibilities of Mr. Jobs, who had been general manager of the Macintosh division. Mr. Jobs will remain only as chairman of the board, and will take what the company called a ''more global role'' in product development and strategy formulation.

Apple insiders and analysts saw the move as an urgent attempt by John Sculley, president and chief executive, to assert leadership at a time when the company is beset with numerous problems. There is a growing feeling on Wall Street and in Silicon Valley that Mr. Sculley, who was recruited two years ago from Pepsico Inc., must act soon to turn the company around.

'It's Serious Now'

''It's serious now; it's not the time for fun and games,'' said Michele Preston, an analyst with L.F. Rothschild, Unterberg, Towbin.

Apple is reeling both from the general slowdown in personal computer sales and problems within the company. Analysts now say it will barely break even in the quarter ending June 28, and might even lose money for the first time in its history. Because the summer quarter is traditionally slow, Apple's business is not expected to improve before Christmas.

The reorganization is just the latest step Apple has taken to try to reduce costs and improve its management. It has scaled back advertising, closed factories for a week, eliminated its Lisa computer and some development efforts, and laid off more than 1,600 people. Today's move is expected to produce more layoffs. #2 Product Units Eliminated The reorganization eliminates the two separate product divisions - one for the Macintosh and the other for the Apple II - and replaces them with an operations division and a sales and marketing division. As important as the structure, however, are the executives Mr. Sculley has chosen to head the new divisions.

Delbert W. Yocam, executive vice president, an operations-oriented manager who formerly headed the Apple II division, will become the group executive in charge of product manufacturing, development and distribution for all Apple products worldwide.

William V. Campbell, formerly executive vice president of sales, will head United States sales and marketing. Previously, marketing was split between the two product divisions and sales. Michael Spindler will remain vice president in charge of international marketing and sales.

Even before today's reorganization Mr. Sculley had been moving in a new team. He brought Jean-Louis Gassee, head of Apple's French operation, to replace Michael Murray, who, like Mr. Jobs, was young and enthusiastic but relatively inexperienced. In the new reorganization, Mr. Gassee will become head of product development, reporting to Mr. Yocam.

I guess now we're on the quest to find the highest AppleNet ID for a 2/10, but so far it looks like 10K is the right number, not 100K.

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