LisaList2

General Category => LisaList2 => Topic started by: blusnowkitty on May 05, 2021, 05:55:01 pm

Title: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: blusnowkitty on May 05, 2021, 05:55:01 pm
Gonna spin this off from Ray's sales speculation thread...

Took a couple of hours here and scoured the internet for Lisa serial numbers and AppleNet numbers. Found a good few results thanks to old forum posts and eBay listings. Have a look-see, and if you want to contribute your S/N and AppleNet, post 'em here.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iQ5O4xBpRkras6bkaH2r2nRMOAeK_AHTc1fEspSzGoo/edit?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: blusnowkitty on May 05, 2021, 10:20:24 pm
https://68kmla.org/forums/topic/26659-lisa-2-serial-number-how-to-decode/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-lisa-serial-and-date-codes.147497/

So here's some observations... You all probably knew most of these already but for future reference. This list doesn't account for Macintosh XL units.


Judging by the current data, it seems that there were at most 12,000 - 15,000 Lisas sold as Lisas.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: rayarachelian on May 08, 2021, 11:53:42 am
Yup.

These are mine from the chassis:

SN: A3334150, AppleNet: 00108643, MFG: 3334 - recent buy, last year off ebay, this had Jazz on the Widget drive and is a 2/10.

SN: B08B831460139, AppleNet: 00104391, MFG: 83146
Missing sticker, I think this was a lease, has two stickers, top one has a red border and black numbers, no bar code, in a white box says: "Property of Apple Computer Inc." A1081 and then a 2nd one, black box with a barcode: 106336 - not sure what these mean, but the 2nd one looks like an AppleNet and possibly the top one is the S/N.
SN: A3245610, AppleNet: 00104218, MFG: 3245 - this was also a recent buy off ebay, severely damaged due to battery leak, had a 30MB SunRem hard drive.
Interestingly the apple net IDs of two of these both start with 104, but one is the new B SN and the other an older A SN - this might be a clue.

And here's a couple off recent ebay listings:

SN: A33344145 AppleNet: 00108638 MFG: 3334

Here's one from a chassis on ebay that's being chopped up and sold as panels:
SN: A3197327 AppleNet: 00103676 Mfg: 3197

Another on ebay today:

SN: A3181120 AppleNet: 00102120 Mfg: 3181 Interestingly in this one the AppleNet last 3 digits match the SN's 3 digits. Possibly coincidence, but perhaps it means something (obv. what we're looking for is a unique count, if what you said was correct about AppleNet IDs, perhaps the first 3 digits have to do with a plant number.(as an aside, I wouldn't buy this Lisa, it has severe battery leak damage - also that's an ADB mouse from something like a PPC Mac. Current price on it is $300 but it will cost a lot of time and effort to repair.)

One of the ones on ebay match the MFG date with one of mine:  3334 so this could be useful as an estimate of how many were made on that day.Mine has SN 150, the ebay one has 145 (and this is already in that spreadsheet). So I'd guess there were at least 150 made that day (assuming MFG is by day and not week, and we don't know if that was continuous, day by day, or bursty.)  (Edit: that chassis bottom plate has S/N 327, so ~300/day/factory is the high end so far?)

Another in that spreadsheet has A3341046 - so one day later, but SN 046. So it looks like each SN is by day made, and not sequential. But this one's applenet is  00110381 and mine A3334150, AppleNet: 00108643, so yeah, perhaps the AppleNet ID is the way to go. The delta between the AppleNets is 1738 - that seems a bit high. Were 1738+ machines made between two days across all factories? Or did they skip numbers? If they skipped the actual number of Lisae would be far less than even 10K!

I'm starting to think that the date code is not very useful as a way to get a count as they're all "low" day by day - in the low 100s, but then all the AppleNets seem to start with 001; in that spreadsheet the highest one is around 8000, and one of mine is 0010:8643. So far it's all under 10K.

What would be useful would be to find serial numbers that are sequential from the same day and note what their AppleNet numbers look like, are they also sequential? And then find two that span two days, i.e. MFG: 3333 and MFG: 3334 and see the delta in the AppleNet. That would give us an important data point: are AppleNet IDs truly sequential? And then if so, what's the highest we've ever seen.

It would also be very useful to know when we come across 2/10s - i.e. what's the lowest SN for a 2/10, what's the highest SN for a 2/10, since presumably at some point before deciding to switch to "Lisa is now Mac XL", they switched to making 2/10s. But then again, did all factories immediately switch? or did some pump out 2's and 2/5's for a while from old stock?

The big difference is the I/O board, wiring harness, motherboard and the Widget ofc, but this would mean the chassis for a 2/10 is also different and you couldn't slide in a 2/10 mobo+I/O board in a 2/5 without taking most of the chassis apart to change the wiring harness. So most likely this was only done at a factory.


I also wonder if the keyboard SN's could also yield some clue - if we can figure out what part is unique and whether they're sequential.

At some point, I'll come back to this thread and post all the CPU board SNs from Service ROM, this will take a while due to being busy with other things, so it will be after a long while, most likely once I recap my video boards an power supplies.

@bluesnowkitty - are you able to make use of that German Tank Problem math in some way with this?
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: blusnowkitty on May 08, 2021, 02:35:57 pm
@bluesnowkitty - are you able to make use of that German Tank Problem math in some way with this?

So the math for the German tank problem, at least the Frequentist approach, is actually very, very simple. You take the highest serial number recorded, divide it by the number of units in captivity, then add the highest serial number to that result and subtract 1. The more samples you include in your estimation, the lower the estimate will be but you'll have a more accurate idea of how many units there are that you're trying to number.

What would be useful would be to find serial numbers that are sequential from the same day and note what their AppleNet numbers look like, are they also sequential? And then find two that span two days, i.e. MFG: 3333 and MFG: 3334 and see the delta in the AppleNet. That would give us an important data point: are AppleNet IDs truly sequential? And then if so, what's the highest we've ever seen.

There's a number of serial numbers in the sheet that share the same manufacturing date, and both serial numbers and AppleNet numbers are exactly sequential between both B serials and A serials. So far the only time we've had a manufacturing date difference is Date 4158 and 4159, and there's a difference of 349 AppleNet numbers between the last recorded 4158 and the first (and so far, only) 4159 number.

I'm starting to think that the date code is not very useful as a way to get a count as they're all "low" day by day - in the low 100s, but then all the AppleNets seem to start with 001; in that spreadsheet the highest one is around 8000, and one of mine is 0010:8643. So far it's all under 10K.
There is a machine with AppleNet #10898 floating around out there.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: rayarachelian on May 09, 2021, 10:52:20 am
There's a number of serial numbers in the sheet that share the same manufacturing date, and both serial numbers and AppleNet numbers are exactly sequential between both B serials and A serials. So far the only time we've had a manufacturing date difference is Date 4158 and 4159, and there's a difference of 349 AppleNet numbers between the last recorded 4158 and the first (and so far, only) 4159 number.

Right so that's the highest delta we saw so far, so that's useful as a data point in saying that they might have built about 350/day at the high end. We don't know if that was sustained or bursty. We do see a bunch more deltas around 150 between days.

The Lisa was introduced January 19, 1983 and discontinued mid 1985. That gives us 2 years. I'd assume only a few units were available at launch time and likely weren't all ready to ship yet, perhaps the software had bugs and needed patching, etc.

Presumably the factories were shared making Apple ]['s, Lisas, and Macs, but it's possible they were dedicated due to the need to reconfigure the machinery. So if we figure the factory worked M-F year around for ~3 years, at maximum they would have made 52 weeks * 5 days * 350 machines/day: 91000 machines/year, easily over 273K in a maximum of 3 years. Even at half of that, 52*5*150=39,000 machines/year, or 117K over 3 years.

So there's the a potential that 100K Lisas might have been made. Possibly this is where that number came from. But it doesn't take a lot into account. What was the lead time to build all the parts before putting them together, they'd obviously need enough stock for a complete Lisa to assemble one and then test it for a few hours before packing it up into a box. Lots of PCB making, drilling, pick and place, plastic molding, and then assembly. Most of that was done by humans. I would guess a single Lisa would take several days from parts to ready to ship.

Likely most were made in the first few weeks, and they'd keep making them until they needed to build some other machine. At some point, they decided to retrofit from Lisa 1 to Lisa 2, this likely occurred sometime in Aug-Dec 1983, so very early on. https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_applelisahKit1983_473392 (https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_applelisahKit1983_473392) - sadly undated. Not sure if the 29-0505 means it happened in May or this is just some coincidental document number. So around there, they would have made enough upgrade kits to match all the Lisa 1s they made, and then continued to change their own stock of I/O boards and faceplates, and then started to make new ones.
https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Hide_Under_This_Desk.txt says it's August 1983.

The Lisa 2/10 was introduced with the Mac in Jan 1984, so it was designed and built at the mid-end of 1983. Possibly right after the Twiggy->Sony upgrade.
Looking at the ROM source code, it contains useful dates of various events:

Code: [Select]
0000|                       ;                                           1) New icons.0000|                       ;                                           2) Display of icons with id #'s.
0000|                       ;                                8/9/83  -  Add save of disk ROM id in low memory. (CHG010)0000|                       ;                                           Add fixes for:
0000|                       ;                                           1) SCC init for Applebus.  (CHG011) - interesting - AppleTalk?
0000|                       ;                                           2) Test card boot search.  (CHG012)
Code: [Select]
0000|                       ;                                             seconds for Widget systems. (CHG037)0000|                       ;                                           2)Add delay after hard disk reset for Widget
0000|                       ;                                             systems. (CHG038)
So most likely sometime around 2/7/84 I'd expect the factories to have switched to making 2/10s and using the left over stock for the remaining 2/5s.

This means they weren't sure that the sales would have failed or not as they didn't cancel the 2/10s. So that decision came after mid 1984. This NYT article describes overall sales/profit, but no breakdown by machine type, only says the consumers lost interest in the Apple ][s:

https://www.nytimes.com/1985/06/15/business/apple-cuts-1200-loss-seen.html
Quote
Apple Computer Inc., battling a fierce downturn in personal computers as well as problems in its own ranks, said yesterday that it was laying off 1,200 employees, more than a fifth of its work force.

In a terse statement from John Sculley, president and chief executive, who consolidated his position atop the company in a reorganization two weeks ago, Apple also said that it expected a loss from write-offs in its third quarter, ending in June.

Apple spokesmen said they could not estimate the size of the loss, but sources close to the company predicted that the pretax write-offs could total as much as $30 million, giving the company an after-tax loss of $12 million to $18 million. Last quarter, the company earned $10 million, on sales of $435.3 million. ''We expect these steps to significantly reduce the break-even point of the company,'' Mr. Sculley said in the statement.

And this one: https://www.nytimes.com/1985/06/01/business/the-restructuring-of-apple-computer.html
Quote
In a move aimed both at streamlining Apple and moving it out of the shadow of its co-founder, Steven P. Jobs, the company announced a corporate restructuring that does away with its two separate product divisions, in favor of manufacturing and marketing divisions responsible for all Apple products.

The restructuring eliminates the day-to-day operating responsibilities of Mr. Jobs, who had been general manager of the Macintosh division. Mr. Jobs will remain only as chairman of the board, and will take what the company called a ''more global role'' in product development and strategy formulation.

Apple insiders and analysts saw the move as an urgent attempt by John Sculley, president and chief executive, to assert leadership at a time when the company is beset with numerous problems. There is a growing feeling on Wall Street and in Silicon Valley that Mr. Sculley, who was recruited two years ago from Pepsico Inc., must act soon to turn the company around.

'It's Serious Now'

''It's serious now; it's not the time for fun and games,'' said Michele Preston, an analyst with L.F. Rothschild, Unterberg, Towbin.

Apple is reeling both from the general slowdown in personal computer sales and problems within the company. Analysts now say it will barely break even in the quarter ending June 28, and might even lose money for the first time in its history. Because the summer quarter is traditionally slow, Apple's business is not expected to improve before Christmas.

The reorganization is just the latest step Apple has taken to try to reduce costs and improve its management. It has scaled back advertising, closed factories for a week, eliminated its Lisa computer and some development efforts, and laid off more than 1,600 people. Today's move is expected to produce more layoffs. #2 Product Units Eliminated The reorganization eliminates the two separate product divisions - one for the Macintosh and the other for the Apple II - and replaces them with an operations division and a sales and marketing division. As important as the structure, however, are the executives Mr. Sculley has chosen to head the new divisions.

Delbert W. Yocam, executive vice president, an operations-oriented manager who formerly headed the Apple II division, will become the group executive in charge of product manufacturing, development and distribution for all Apple products worldwide.

William V. Campbell, formerly executive vice president of sales, will head United States sales and marketing. Previously, marketing was split between the two product divisions and sales. Michael Spindler will remain vice president in charge of international marketing and sales.

Even before today's reorganization Mr. Sculley had been moving in a new team. He brought Jean-Louis Gassee, head of Apple's French operation, to replace Michael Murray, who, like Mr. Jobs, was young and enthusiastic but relatively inexperienced. In the new reorganization, Mr. Gassee will become head of product development, reporting to Mr. Yocam.


I guess now we're on the quest to find the highest AppleNet ID for a 2/10, but so far it looks like 10K is the right number, not 100K.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: jamesdenton on May 10, 2021, 10:15:28 am
I have 3 Lisa's at home, but only two are easily accessible at the moment, so I'll return with information on the 3rd later.

SN: A3195247, AppleNet: 00102880, MFG: 3195 - Bought in 2018 off eBay from a seller in the US that brought it back from Germany years ago. This is a 2/5 with a 1A 220V power supply and German keyboard.

SN: A3165051, AppleNet: 00102513, MFG: 3165 - Bought in 2017 off eBay from a seller in the US, likely a member of this forum (or at least Google Groups). This is a 2/5 with a 1A 110V power supply and US English keyboard.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: jamesdenton on May 10, 2021, 10:45:34 am
From the Lisa recently mentioned here (by mjposner) - not mine:

SN: A4283098, AppleNet: 00106226, MFG: 4283 - This is the 2/10 recently sold by mjposner on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/393245595464)
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: jamesdenton on May 10, 2021, 10:55:52 am
Another from eBay:

SN: A3334145, AppleNet: 00108638, MFG: 3334 - This is a 2/5 currently listed on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/194102391362)
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: jamesdenton on May 10, 2021, 03:37:37 pm
SN: B08B820200058, AppleNet: 00100067, MFG: 82020 - This is not mine, but one I was tracking a few years ago. From 68kmla.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: stepleton on May 10, 2021, 04:55:57 pm
Here's my Lisa 1:

    Serial number: B08B831590504
    Applenet number: 00102905
    Manufactured: 83159

And my Lisa 2/10:

    Serial number: A3257425
    Applenet number: 00106191
    Manufactured: 3257

In the spreadsheet, I suspect the serial number for a CHM machine listed as "808B831990176" is probably "B08B831990176". The B looks a lot like an 8 on my Lisa 1; maybe an artifact of the machine they used to make those labels.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: jamesdenton on May 10, 2021, 05:56:46 pm
One more for you:

SN: A3321293, AppleNet: 00107035, MFG: 3321 - This is a 2/5 currently listed on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/393292386413).
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: jamesdenton on May 10, 2021, 06:15:16 pm
Alright, I can't find the sticker for my 2/10 and my attempt to reverse engineer the serial has turned up a match in the spreadsheet already :D

yy  ddd  uuuu  ppp  nnnnn
83  162  0256  001  04204

I think this comes out to:

SN: A31620256, Applenet: 00104204, Date: 3162

Here's what I see in the spreadsheet:

02831620256   00104204         blusnowkitty   chassis and CPU don't match; S/N is in ROM format

So, either I bought this 2/10 from you, or the vsrom that's installed came from a shared source (VintageMicros, perhaps)? It's possible this thing came to me with a 3A ROM and that's what I had on-hand, I don't recall!
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: blusnowkitty on May 10, 2021, 09:23:15 pm
02831620256   00104204         blusnowkitty   chassis and CPU don't match; S/N is in ROM format

So, either I bought this 2/10 from you, or the vsrom that's installed came from a shared source (VintageMicros, perhaps)? It's possible this thing came to me with a 3A ROM and that's what I had on-hand, I don't recall!

That's probably the VintageMicros ROM - I know I've never had a 2/10 (but I need one for a project!) and I legit could not remember if I installed the VintageMicros ROM in mine or not. Now to figure out what happened to my original ROM...
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: compu_85 on May 14, 2021, 12:42:24 am
Here's 3 more:

2/5
SN: A4186075
Applenet: 00106435
Manf'd: 4186
Notes: This computer was bought by Virginia Tech in 1985, then sold to a student in the CS program. Speaking with him, he said VT bought a bunch of Lisas and sold them to students, with UniPlus Unix. It was sold with a 10m Profile.

2/10
SN: A4293063
Applenet:00106665
Manf'd: 4293
Notes: Came from a meat packer's called Rock River provision in Indiana, they stopped using it around 1993. Had Macworks on the Widget.

2/10
SN: A4192153
Applenet: 00109415
Manf'd: 4192
Notes: Accelerated square pixel machine. Unsure on history.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: conmega on May 17, 2021, 08:57:42 am
Creating a list like this is a great idea. Hopefully it'll provide some good insight.

Here are 4 Lisa's I picked up recently.
A Lisa 1?, 2/5, 2/10, 2/10
I passed the later looking 2/10 to a friend since I don't need two. I kept the earlier one as it found it interesting historically, I need to write up the differences I found in another thread at some point. But for example the newer stylized Lisa logo that is normally on the bottom backplane of the 2/10 is not present of the earlier example I have. Its also an earlier rev of the backplane. But it seems that one has a later Applenet No? So that's odd.
And yes I did check, the video rom's SNs do match on both 2/10s. I have yet to check on the Lisa 1 or 2/5.

Lisa 1? Not fully upgraded to a 2/5? Twiggy rom (40), R47 snipped, drive cage and face plate missing.
Has Aluminum Apple Asset tag.
SN: B08B823550042
Applenet: 00100049
Mfg: 82355

Lisa 2/5:
SN: A4159392
Applenet: 00105235
Mfg: 4159

Lisa 2/10 with earlier rev boards inside?, but later AppleNet No?:
SN: A4197089
Applenet: 00111264
Mfg: 4197

Lisa 2/10 with later rev boards, but earlier AppleNet No? (one sold to friend, no longer in my possession):
SN: A4295043
Applenet: 00107051
Mfg: 4295

Here is an album with photos of the machines and their stickers incase I typo'd or you want to verify:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oEZVfLgCHd4mkSdm9

EDIT:
I have been poking around google images as-well and found another data point:
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-apple-computer-a6sb100-screen-1867087741
Lisa 2/5 upgraded from Lisa 1?
SN: B08B820200262
Applenet: 00100271
Mfg: 82020
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: blusnowkitty on May 17, 2021, 08:28:14 pm
Congratulations on owning the earliest and the oldest production Lisa :)
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: conmega on May 18, 2021, 06:57:29 am
Congratulations on owning the earliest and the oldest production Lisa :)

Heh well it may be the lowest and highest Applenet number known currently. Obviously my "earliest" has a MFG date of: 82355 where as Applenet: 00100067 & 00100271 both have a MFG date of: 82020
I also find it interesting that it seems Applenet ids 00102xxx all seem to match the lower numbers of the S/Ns. As if they reset at 2000?
Also my 2/10 (00111264) has a MFG date of: 4197 where as there are quite a few later in '84 as-well.

Obviously the SNs can't be sequential, the Applenet's appear to be but not in terms of manufacture date. Where Lisas made in more than one plant? If so maybe each plant was given ranges to manufacture? Where I work I believe this is how we function. Lets say Plant A/B can make 100 units a week and Plant C can make 200 units a week. So Plant A gets range 0-100 Plant B gets range 200-300, Plant C gets 300-500. Once the week is over new ranges can be given based on what was actually manufactured and databases can be kept tracking back which plant manufactured which machines.

This would explain the date weirdness, AND if it was manufactured in multiple plants would explain how they could then trace back which plant manufactured which unit.

Purely speculative of-course.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: blusnowkitty on May 18, 2021, 09:25:45 am
Where Lisas made in more than one plant? If so maybe each plant was given ranges to manufacture? Where I work I believe this is how we function.

I've heard, admittedly totally unsourced, that the Lisa was first manufactured in Apple's plant in California and then was later transferred to the Apple II plant in Texas.

If we assume that B08B was the California plant and A was the Texas plant then based on this data it seems to me that manufacturing started around February 1982 in California, then by early 1983 they were running both the California and the Texas lines side-by-side, and finally by mid-1983 manufacturing moved completely to Texas.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: blusnowkitty on June 10, 2021, 10:40:15 pm
Did another huge update by digging through old WorthPoint archives... We're currently sitting at around 11,300 systems made as Lisas. Still doesn't account for any of the Mac XLs made in 1985; are we even sure they had serial numbers?

Something else I've noticed is that while AppleNet numbers seem to be sequential, the serial numbers sure aren't.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: rayarachelian on July 04, 2021, 10:58:52 am
Found a nifty one! This one is a very low AppleNet number: 0010081 *but* has a B serial number: B08B823560074


https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Zy8AAOSwdxpg4STx/s-l1600.jpg

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184920984056

Needs work cleaning the still present leaky NiCads and corrosion. It's throwing I/O error 50, but considering the other nightmare Lisa's I've seen this one's probably not as hard to repair as it does turn on.

It also looks like the present owner isn't too keen on shipping it and I wouldn't trust it would arrive in one piece if not professionally boxed/wrapped based on their description
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: compu_85 on July 07, 2021, 12:10:44 am
... We're currently sitting at around 11,300 systems made as Lisas. ...

Wow... so does that mean over half of the Lisa population was buried in a landfill?

-J
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: rayarachelian on July 07, 2021, 08:59:24 am
Wow... so does that mean over half of the Lisa population was buried in a landfill?

I think it's only ~2700 that were entombed at Logan, so out of the total 11300 left, we don't know of the 8600 how many were 2/10s, which should have survived, and how many were destroyed by NiCad leaks, or just tossed out/recycled by their owners due to age/obsolescence rather than given to others or sold off on ebay, or survived estate sales.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: compu_85 on July 07, 2021, 12:03:37 pm
Ah! I had transposed that to 7200 in my head.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: rayarachelian on July 07, 2021, 06:31:44 pm
Ah! I had transposed that to 7200 in my head.

Still, I feel there's a lot fewer working Lisas out there than ever estimated. I don't know if I'd want to create or have "A Lisa Registry" due to the privacy implications, but @blusnowkitty's spreadsheet sort of serves that function and as we can see there's only ~134 rows there. Certainly there may be Lisae hiding in people's closets, basements, sheds, attics, and so on, even if there's 10x that number, that's a very small number of machines. :( It's depressing to think about.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: compu_85 on July 08, 2021, 01:24:16 pm
IMHO I'm fine with making a registry - I doubt anyone is using a Lisa to prepare their taxes at this point, and tying a machine back to a screen name isn't a big deal IMHO (but - if someone doesn't want to tie their machine back to their SC that's fine, just note the SN in the list!)
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: blusnowkitty on July 10, 2021, 02:34:05 pm
Well I found the VSROM that came with my Lisa when I bought it and I've tossed it up in my list. I never noticed until just now but I noticed that there's a "location code" encoded in the VSROM serial. Think that corresponds with the California and Texas plants?

I think I finally have enough data to speculate that at peak, at the A plant anyway, they could produce between 500 to 700 systems a day - I've got enough systems from the 415x date range now to make that guess. There may also be enough data in the 333x ranges to make an educated guess too. This sheet also seems to indicate that AppleNet numbers seem to not be quite as sequential as we thought since it sure looks like to me that both factories produced systems where

Day 1, 1000 systems made with Applenet 00101000 - 00101999
Day 2, 1000 systems made with Applenet 00106000 - 00106999
Day 3, 1000 systems made with Applenet 00102000 - 00102999

and so on and so on.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: rayarachelian on July 10, 2021, 03:11:43 pm
Well I found the VSROM that came with my Lisa when I bought it and I've tossed it up in my list. I never noticed until just now but I noticed that there's a "location code" encoded in the VSROM serial. Think that corresponds with the California and Texas plants?

Which part is that again? Visible in Service Mode? Sticker on the ROM? Part of the SN?
Edit: oh right: p78: http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.apple.asimov.net/documentation/applelisa/AppleLisa%20-%20Good%20Things%20to%20Know.pdfand https://www.applefritter.com/content/apple-lisa-serial-number-info

Code: [Select]
First remove every other nibble like this:
    00000240   0F0F 0002 0802 0002 0000 0400 0300 0F0F
 240    F F  0 2  8 2  0 2  0 0  4 0  3 0  F F
Then group the numbers as follows:
    Number of the Nibble in Hex   01 23 45 678 9ABC D EF
    Address                240    FF 02 82 020 0403 0 FF
                                  XX PP YY DDD SSSS X XX
    Extract the serial number from this group of 16 nibbles as follows:
    a. Ignore nibbles 0,1,D,E and F, marked as XX or X above.
 b. Nibbles 2 and 3 are the two digit plant code (PP).
 c. Nibbles 4 and 5 are the two digit year code (YY).
 d. Nibbles 6, 7 and 8 are the day of the year code (DDD).
 e. Nibbles 9 thru C are the 4 digit serial number (SSSS).
The Applenet Number is similarly embedded in the first 8 bytes of the next
 line of the memory dump. So, using the same method as step 4 above, we get:
    00000250   0000 0100 0004 0102 0002 0900 0000 0000
         250    0 0  1 0  0 4  1 2  0 2  9 0  0 0  0 0
    Number of the Nibble in Hex
                           012 34567 89ABCDEF
    Address       250      001 00412 02900000
                           PPP NNNNN XXXXXXXX
7. To extract the Applenet Number:
    a. Ignore nibbles 8 through F, marked as XXXXXXXX above.
 b. Nibbles 0, 1 and 2 are the AppleNet prefix (PPP).
 c. Nibbles 3 thru 7 are the AppleNet number (NNNNN).

This sheet also seems to indicate that AppleNet numbers seem to not be quite as sequential as we thought since it sure looks like to me that both factories produced systems where

Day 1, 1000 systems made with Applenet 00101000 - 00101999
Day 2, 1000 systems made with Applenet 00106000 - 00106999
Day 3, 1000 systems made with Applenet 00102000 - 00102999

So then that would imply the ceiling is actually under 10K? Maybe 8K units instead of 13K?
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: compu_85 on July 11, 2021, 09:23:14 pm
Here's the SN of the System Source Muesum's Lisa 1 I got to help work on this weekend:

https://twitter.com/compu_85/status/1414245531212304396/photo/1

It has no sn sticker.

-J
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: rayarachelian on July 12, 2021, 09:49:59 am
Awesome! Thank you! Best of luck repairing it.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: compu_85 on July 14, 2021, 07:11:24 am
More photos of AppleNet number 33 here: http://www.macgeek.org/museum/applelisa1/

I was also thinking about the manf date in the System Source Lisa 1's VSROM... 82380. Aren't there only 365 days in a year  :o

-J
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: rayarachelian on July 17, 2021, 05:46:09 pm
Just posted a small summary of parts of "The Steve I knew" - John Couch said it was closer to 100K units, but so far we don't see any above 13K AppleNet wise. Hmmm.

https://lisalist2.com/index.php/topic,203.msg1553.html#msg1553
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: nick on July 17, 2021, 08:05:22 pm
Ray, does this Lisa have the same AppleNet No as one of your Lisa's? If so this would indicate that the Applenet No is perhaps not unique?

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/RI4AAOSwgZdg2hZX/s-l1600.jpg (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/RI4AAOSwgZdg2hZX/s-l1600.jpg)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304059895907 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304059895907)

SN: A3245610, AppleNet: 00104218, MFG: 3245 - this was also a recent buy off ebay, severely damaged due to battery leak, had a 30MB SunRem hard drive.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: blusnowkitty on July 17, 2021, 10:27:06 pm
Ray, does this Lisa have the same AppleNet No as one of your Lisa's? If so this would indicate that the Applenet No is perhaps not unique?

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/RI4AAOSwgZdg2hZX/s-l1600.jpg (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/RI4AAOSwgZdg2hZX/s-l1600.jpg)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304059895907 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304059895907)

SN: A3245610, AppleNet: 00104218, MFG: 3245 - this was also a recent buy off ebay, severely damaged due to battery leak, had a 30MB SunRem hard drive.

I don't think that AppleNet matches any of mine, just did a search of that google sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iQ5O4xBpRkras6bkaH2r2nRMOAeK_AHTc1fEspSzGoo/edit#gid=0) and it's not in there. I added all of mine there (except for the spare CPU boards)
It is possible that there were duplicates, but I'm not aware of any. I'd imagine that duplicates would be bad for networking in a hypothetical large corporation purchase, but yeah, even ethernet Mac addresses were known to be faked and duplicated when certain brands didn't want to pay the IEEE or whatever.

Nah, as far as the AppleNets go it does match to what you put in as Machine A3245610... so this is curious, do we have a genuine from-the-factory Applenet conflict?
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: rayarachelian on July 18, 2021, 10:00:26 am
Interesting. I think I see why I didn't find it, I hit control-f but probably had javascript off for one of the google domains, so FireFox's find didn't find that AN#, however, when I turned it on and do a find from the find field inside of the spreadsheet it does find it. That is very weird. I'll have to go through my Lisas again to confirm it wasn't a typo on my part.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: rayarachelian on July 18, 2021, 06:39:23 pm
Ok, so it's confirmed, there's at least one duplicate AppleNet, this one is a 2/10 that had MacWorks with Minifinder on the widget that I got off ebay ~August 2018. The previous owner got it from an estate sale; it had files indicating a family on Long Island owned it in the mid-late 1980s - this is the one that had that copy of Lotus Jazz on it.

But if there really are 10x more Lisas than the 13K, there should be a lot more duplicate AppleNets, and we don't see that. However, since there is one black swan, there could be more. The big issue then is how many?

So the serial numbers aren't sequential but likely unique and the AppleNets are supposedly sequential, but now we find they're not unique. Ow!
WTF was apple (not) thinking!
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: nick on July 18, 2021, 07:47:10 pm
Thanks for confirming that Ray.

The eBay UK listing I linked to also indicates that machine was "Assembled in Ireland" on the model/memory option sticker (rather than Made in USA), and the model number ends in P presumably to indicate that Lisa was fitted with a 240 volt power supply.

I assume the programmed VSROM and serial number sticker were likely produced in the US factory, as the plant number is the well-known B08B in the serial number, and therefore a different plant number did not need to be assigned to the factory in Ireland assembling Lisa's for the European markets.
Title: Re: Lisa Tank Problem
Post by: rayarachelian on July 18, 2021, 08:04:06 pm
I wonder if the duplication of the AppleNets is allowed between the A and B serialnumbers or maybe 2/5s vs 2/10s or maybe an accident. Hard to say since we have only a single black swan to look at. :(

I'd expect if there were 100K vs 13K Lisae that we'd see more AppleNet number conflicts - like the birthday problem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem) it should show up more often rather than just once. Then again birthdays are 1-365(366) but AppleNet numbers are 001xxxxx so 5 digits long vs 3 and that spreadsheet is a bit small at the moment.