LisaList2

General Category => LisaList2 => Topic started by: blusnowkitty on June 17, 2020, 04:24:28 pm

Title: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: blusnowkitty on June 17, 2020, 04:24:28 pm
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1981-APPLE-COMPUTERS-UNKNOWN-TEST-BOARD-PROTO-SK1158-02-6XX-XXX/303595454108

Any clues what this might be/have been? It's got a Synertek 6521a VIA, a 7405 hex inverter and a 74245 bus transceiver onboard, plus lots of empty space for other chips. Attached are the same pictures but mirrored for posterity since eBay pictures disappear after a while.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: rayarachelian on June 17, 2020, 04:32:36 pm
The a 7405 hex inverter and a 74245 are just used to enable access to the VIA. It looks like this has no ROM, so you can't boot off it.
Since it's only got a single 6521 it can only be a single parallel port. U1A-U6D aren't hooked up, so you'd need to wire wrap stuff there.
Edit: at first I wrote 6522, so yeah, it's a super early proto.

The 40 pin connector on the side likely connects almost all the pins of that VIA to the outside world.

I'd guess this proto is a very early parallel port test unit, before the Lisa was finalized as there's no ROM to identify it to the boot ROM, or to be able to boot from.

Which also means it won't be usable in any OS since it won't be recognized. I'd guess it has inherently a lot of historical value for what it is, but zero practical use in any current working Lisa.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on June 17, 2020, 04:53:56 pm
It's nice that the seller provided those nice high-res images, since you could just clone it without much trouble...
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: D.Finni on June 18, 2020, 09:01:57 pm
since you could just clone it without much trouble...
Sure, but your result would still be "zero practical use in any current working Lisa." :P
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on June 19, 2020, 03:14:31 pm
Sure, but your result would still be "zero practical use in any current working Lisa." :P

I'm definitely going to stick to practical uses of my Apple Lisa, for sure  :D

But in all seriousness, even though you can't boot from this card, you can probably still write some code on the Lisa side that talks to it somehow. It would depend on how old the thing was, and whether they'd changed the way the bus works. And, just for fun, you can do some eyeball reverse engineering from the photos already (along with page 3-9 of the hardware manual (https://lisa.sunder.net/LisaHardwareManual1983.pdf)): unsurprisingly given the nature of the chip there, the fact that it uses the VPA and VMA pins says that this card uses the 6800-compatible bus signalling scheme. (The use of only eight address lines is another big clue, of course). I'd want to check all of the other lines, but if they were all good...

I wouldn't use it as the heart of my home automation setup, but you could if you really wanted to :)
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: rayarachelian on June 19, 2020, 03:16:38 pm
yeah, I mean, if you're willing to write your own drivers for it, sure you could make use of it, but if you're going to go through that much trouble why not use the normal 2x parallel card and wire up whatever set of 16 relays to that for your home automation setup. :)
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: patrick on June 19, 2020, 03:25:49 pm
At Commodore they call this an "user port". You would need some PEEK() / POKE equivalent for Lisa Pascal, that's all.

Apple used to use their own machines as end of line production test equipment. This board might have been used in that context.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: rayarachelian on June 19, 2020, 04:31:56 pm
At Commodore they call this an "user port". You would need some PEEK() / POKE equivalent for Lisa Pascal, that's all.

Apple used to use their own machines as end of line production test equipment. This board might have been used in that context.

Yes, as a Commodore kid, I know exactly what you mean. :) I've seen them on pets, vic20's, c64's, and c128's. :)

So there actually is another Lisatest card up on ebay, but this one is damaged, it's supposed to have large power resistors at the top and a ROM in the socket. It's $150 now, but it's incomplete. The same seller had a complete one that was sold much earlier on. If you one you picked it up perhaps you could dump its ROM.

What's interesting is that I've noticed about the Test card  (not this guy) is that it has an ADC chip at the top right under the resistors. So they used this to measure voltages (or perhaps watts) in the card as a proxy to test the power supply.

There's also a COP421 controller attached possibly to one of the VIA6522's and the other one goes to a DB25. There's also a DB9? not sure what these were for but likely to communicate with external test equipment. I'd imagine that they could boot off the test card rather than have to insert a LisaTest floppy, but that's conjecture.

Possibly one VIA allows the Lisa's CPU to talk to the COP to test the slot. Maybe the COP sent some bytes back and forth through that VIA to the Lisa to test the slot. The external VIA was likely used to talk to whatever the factory floor umbilical cord had to pass/fail and maybe upload a copy of LisaTest to that Lisa's RAM.
(I'm guessing here.)

I don't think this specific prototype card was used in factory line QC testing, I think it was really a prototype for an early parallel port expansion though it may have grown into that later on.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: blusnowkitty on June 23, 2020, 03:38:46 pm
Here's some more interesting stuff that seller has put up...

Only known surviving copy of WidEx? https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-APPLE-COMPUTERS-WIDGET-STATUS-MONITOR-CARD-DISKETTE-LISA-1985/303595450646
Prototype 10MB ProFile? https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-PROTOTYPE-VINTAGE-APPLE-COMPUTERS-PROFILE-10-MEG-LISA-TEAM-ENGINEER-ESTATE/303603209953

But I think the most interesting listing is this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-APPLE-COMPUTERS-INTERNAL-ENGINEERING-LOT-LISA-TWIGGY-TEST-5-25/303603206506

Pictures again re-uploaded for posterity - it's mostly Apple II and III disks, but there seem to be a number of Lisa test applications on cassette tape! Anyone ever heard of a Lisa with a cassette tape drive, or perhaps the Lisa originally started life in the Apple II?
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on June 23, 2020, 03:58:21 pm
The Widget test disk documentation doesn't quite match the Widex documentation here, I don't think:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/apple/disk/widget/Widex_May84.pdf

But it's probably similar. Maybe a stripped down version for dealers.

The other sale looks exciting but is too rich for my blood. I hope whoever gets it takes good care of it!
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: rayarachelian on June 23, 2020, 07:15:20 pm
Here's some more interesting stuff that seller has put up...

This is sad. This stuff should go directly to bitsavers where it can be properly imaged/scanned in. I don't have $3K burning a hole in my pocket to buy these and donate them.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: sigma7 on June 24, 2020, 12:12:52 am
Quote
But I think the most interesting listing is this one: RARE-VINTAGE-APPLE-COMPUTERS-INTERNAL-ENGINEERING-LOT-LISA-TWIGGY-TEST-5-25
- it's mostly Apple II and III disks, but there seem to be a number of Lisa test applications on cassette tape! Anyone ever heard of a Lisa with a cassette tape drive, or perhaps the Lisa originally started life in the Apple II?

Decades ago I purchased a Lisa I/O Port Test Card with ROM from eBay. IIRC, when I disassembled the ROM, it was purely a loader to load test code from an external computer (via a parallel port I think). Contemporary documents/rumours indicated that for manufacturing test and burn-in, Apple /// computers were used to test the Lisas.

So my theory is that the tapes are for the Apple ///'s  (and/or ]['s) that were connected to the Lisa's with Test Cards.

edit: updated name of the card
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: Lisa2 on June 24, 2020, 01:42:23 pm
My guess is that the cassette tapes are for a FLUKE 9010A Micro-System Troubleshooter that Apple used in testing.

Something like this:

https://www.ebay.com/c/1601694360 (https://www.ebay.com/c/1601694360)
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: compu_85 on July 08, 2020, 02:26:45 pm
I ended up getting the parallel port card... amazingly the seller took best offers.

I hope whoever gets the floppies is able to make images, and shares them with the rest of the class...

I was able to pick up the IO Port Test card too... which has its rom present. I'll back it up as soon as I can.

Do we know where the flying clip leads hook up?

I've been wanting one of the test cards for some time, and within a week I've gotten two of them :o

The seller also had a loopback plug for the serial ports. That's still in the mail, I'll post pictures once it arrives. This was the listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-APPLE-COMPUTERS-1982-SERIAL-PORT-TEST-CARD-SK1406-00-APPLE-ENGINEER/293628746220

High res picture of the cards: https://i.imgur.com/LYntDsn.jpg

Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 08, 2020, 02:48:07 pm
The DMA test card is with me here in the UK. I will desolder and image the ROM at some point.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: compu_85 on July 08, 2020, 03:00:18 pm
Do we know what software was used with these cards? I assume it's not the normal LisaTest?

-J
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: rayarachelian on July 08, 2020, 04:59:27 pm
I ended up getting the parallel port card... amazingly the seller took best offers.

I hope whoever gets the floppies is able to make images, and shares them with the rest of the class...

I was able to pick up the IO Port Test card too... which has its rom present. I'll back it up as soon as I can.

Do we know where the flying clip leads hook up?

I've been wanting one of the test cards for some time, and within a week I've gotten two of them :o

The seller also had a loopback plug for the serial ports. That's still in the mail, I'll post pictures once it arrives. This was the listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-APPLE-COMPUTERS-1982-SERIAL-PORT-TEST-CARD-SK1406-00-APPLE-ENGINEER/293628746220

High res picture of the cards: https://i.imgur.com/LYntDsn.jpg


I think I remember back when I first started on LisaEm that I disassembled the code around the test loopback cable, it basically wants to link the xmit on port a to rcv on port b and vice versa, or perhaps within each port, don't recall, i.e. xmit on port a went to receive on port a, xmit on port b went to receive on port b, not sure about the hardware handshaking wires. Wasn't much of a complex thing at all. I can look at the LisaEm code if anyone's curious about it.

Edit: yeah, it should be sending data from port a to port b and vice versa:

Code: [Select]
void write_serial_port_loopbackplug(unsigned int port, char data) {DEBUG_LOG(0,"wrote %02x to port %d",data,port); fliflo_buff_add(&SCC_READ[(!port)&1],data & scc_bits_per_char_mask[(!port)&1]);}

The photos I see in the ebay listing. however, seem to loop from port A to port A, and from port B to port B - that is pins 2,3 are connected to each other.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: compu_85 on July 08, 2020, 06:44:47 pm
Here are the pictures of the serial test plug. Interestingly, port A has more pins looped back than port B.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: compu_85 on July 08, 2020, 08:42:34 pm
Here is the dump from the 2716 on the test card.

There's this string at the end: AWAITING APPLE INPUT Rev 1.1
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: compu_85 on July 08, 2020, 09:10:05 pm
It appears to be bootable, though it fails with an error 93 when I try it in my 2/10 and 2/5.

One interesting tidbit: The system turns on as soon as power is applied when the card is installed.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: rayarachelian on July 09, 2020, 09:20:32 am
It appears to be bootable, though it fails with an error 93 when I try it in my 2/10 and 2/5.

One interesting tidbit: The system turns on as soon as power is applied when the card is installed.

Interesting, so I wonder how it's signalling to the COPS to turn on immediately. Could you try to use BLU to dump the expansion slot ROM for that card and upload here?
93 is just a generic "other card problem".

I wonder what the 2 in the "IO2" means, is it in slot 2?
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: compu_85 on July 09, 2020, 09:35:40 am
The ROM is attached to the post above.

I'm assuming this is Version 2 of the card? The icon doesn't change with the slot the car is installed in. The ROM sticker has B XXX-XXX5 written on it.

The COP is a COP421-HZT/N. Is that one of the mask rom versions?

-J
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: patrick on July 09, 2020, 10:34:08 am
I'm assuming this is Version 2 of the card? The icon doesn't change with the slot the car is installed in. The ROM sticker has B XXX-XXX5 written on it.

The icons are static bitmaps inside the ROM. You cannot modify them at runtime.

Quote
The COP is a COP421-HZT/N. Is that one of the mask rom versions?

HZT indicates the ROM code. This is the Lisa I/O COP. KPK would be the Widget motor controller ROM.


+5STBY is available at the expansion port, but the ON and /PWRSW signals are not. The only thing that could trigger the COP421 would by a temporary short (or overload) on the +5STBY line while +5B (the battery voltage) is present.


Patrick
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: compu_85 on July 09, 2020, 11:50:56 am
Hm. In 2 different systems (one with an Apple power supply, one with a DataPower supply), the IO Test card being installed causes it to power up as soon as power is applied. If the system tries to shut down, it resets instead of powering off.

The +5VSTBY line is connected to the cathode of CR17, and the right most pin of Q1. The anode of CR17 connects to the anode of C13, the cathode of C13 is connected to ground. I'll trace out the rest of the circuit later.

J4 only has Pin3 connected. It goes back to a gate on the LS03 near the COP, the 2 inputs to that gate come from pins 15 and 16 on the COP which according to the datasheet are a serial input, and serial output pin.

High res pictures available here: https://imgur.com/a/BRZJVGD

I have yet to try the card with the load resistors. I might try it on my 2/10 after unplugging the Widget. I'm reluctant to modify an original card, and there's no way to unhook the resistors without cutting or desoldering.

Thanks,

-J
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 09, 2020, 08:14:31 pm
There's this string at the end: AWAITING APPLE INPUT Rev 1.1

Just glancing at the ROM, I think the string is two strings, since there's a null terminator in between them. The first string being in ALL CAPS suggests that the boot ROM's "display message" routine was used to show that on the display, and sure enough, you can find 4eb9 00fe 0088 (JSR #$FE0088 ; call the display message routine) elsewhere in the hex.

The phrase "AWAITING APPLE INPUT" is interesting, since in the Monitor (and elsewhere?), an "Apple" usually referred to an Apple II that was part of the development workstation (see e.g. Page 6 of this Monitor manual (http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/pascal_monitor/Lisa_Development_System_Manual_Mar85.pdf)). So maybe another computer was involved somehow.

Page 86 of the manual describes a LISATEST program (presumably different from the LisaTest most of us know) that contains an "Apple-Lisa Interface Test". The description:

Quote
The Interface Test attempts to use the parallel port interface between the Apple II and the Lisa to verify that the two systems can communicate with each other.

Based on the Page 6 diagram, though, I think the Apple talked to the Lisa through the Lisa's own parallel port.

Or wait, maybe not... These release notes (http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/pascal_monitor/Monitor_11.6_Release_Notes_Jan83.pdf) for the earlier 11.6 Monitor talk about "an Apple PIA card". (Note that when the docs talk about a "Built-In Profile", I think they mean the internal parallel port, not Widget; also, I think an "I/O port" is a logical numbering scheme within the Monitor and not the expansion slots.)

Now I'm starting to wonder if this is what the rudimentary parallel port card that started this thread was all about---maybe that's an Apple PIA card we're looking at. It fits the story in a way---they would have needed to have the PIA card from very early on, so it makes sense for it to be uncomplicated. One could examine the Monitor source code (http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/pascal_monitor/Monitor_11_Listing_Sep82.pdf) to see if the code for talking to the Apple is compatible with the very simple card we see in blusnowkitty's pictures.

Anyway, my reason for going down this road was to wonder whether one of the connectors on the I/O test card may have been for talking to the Apple. I'm starting to think not, so the question remains---in AWAITING APPLE INPUT, who is the APPLE, what is it saying, and how does the test card get the message? I guess the real thing to do is disassemble that ROM data and find out :-)
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 09, 2020, 08:36:55 pm
Oh, and---those flying leads? I have a guess:

The ADC0808 near the port connecting to the flying leads is, well, an ADC, so I'm guessing that it was used to monitor certain important analog voltages in the Lisa, particularly ones that were close at hand---that is, on the I/O board. I'd bet that one of those leads would have clipped onto the screen contrast signal at one of the component legs (I don't think the I/O board had dedicated test points). Perhaps another was for the speaker volume or maybe the speaker itself. It would be interesting to know if one of the leads was ground, which would seem sensible.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: compu_85 on July 10, 2020, 06:48:40 pm
I moved the ROM back to the card with the resistors and tried it out (briefly). It seems like the system tries to boot from it, then fails with an error 90 and some garbage on the screen.

Hers's a shaky cam video of the attempt on my 2/10, which the attached photo is a still from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UWtrU27sI0

The system does spend longer on the IO card test portion of the POST.

Also interesting is that the system comes up with a keyboard error when the IO Test card is installed. Like the first card, the system comes on as soon as power is applied.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: compu_85 on July 10, 2020, 06:52:32 pm
The card acts a little different in my 2/5. It's able to draw the AWAITING APPLE INPUT prompt on the screen for just an instant, before the error 90 box covers it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq2qejCCl6M

Same keyboard error, same auto start when power is applied.

-J
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: Lisa2 on July 11, 2020, 09:08:52 am
Oh, and---those flying leads? I have a guess:

The ADC0808 near the port connecting to the flying leads is, well, an ADC, so I'm guessing that it was used to monitor certain important analog voltages in the Lisa, particularly ones that were close at hand---that is, on the I/O board. I'd bet that one of those leads would have clipped onto the screen contrast signal at one of the component legs (I don't think the I/O board had dedicated test points). Perhaps another was for the speaker volume or maybe the speaker itself. It would be interesting to know if one of the leads was ground, which would seem sensible.

Did you ever wonder why the 2/10 I/O board has a little socket next to the SCC? Maybe this is a clue to these signals....
Rick
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 11, 2020, 11:23:13 am
Did you ever wonder why the 2/10 I/O board has a little socket next to the SCC? Maybe this is a clue to these signals....

I was wondering about that---this is actually the reason I was asking whether the black lead (attached to pin 1 of the ribbon cable) was ground :-)

Looking at the I/O board schematics on lisa.sunder.net, the files for the Lisa 1 and Lisa 2/10 boards both have the same analog circuits section, just with different labels:
https://lisaem.sunder.net/LisaSchem/Lisa1SysIO5.gif
https://lisaem.sunder.net/LisaSchem/Lisa210SysIO5.gif

They mention a J1 that appears to be a 10-pin connector, perhaps the same 10-pin connector you find on the 2/10 I/O board. (I'm too lazy to beep it out this afternoon :-). (There's also another J1 that gets referenced at the top left---that's the card-edge connector at the bottom of the board.) Instead of being ground, though, pin 1 of J1 is connected to some of the analog circuitry for the contrast latch signal.

It's possible that the ribbon cable has been plugged into the test card upside-down, but in that case I think the "pin 1" line goes to an unconnected J1 pin, according to the schematic.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 11, 2020, 11:24:39 am
Ha, looking back I see that I hedged a bit and asked whether any of the leads was ground, but I was especially curious about the black one.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 11, 2020, 07:47:14 pm
This evening I removed the (soldered, with the VCC pin attached to an enormous fill that sucked away all the heat) ROM from the DMA test card (picture attached) and dumped it. This ROM has even less nonzero data than the IO test card ROM. I've attached the binary data, but here is a hex dump of all of it (the * stands in for rows of all $00 bytes):

The first several bytes of an expansion card ROM are a special description data structure described on page 3-17 of the Lisa hardware manual (https://lisa.sunder.net/LisaHardwareManual1983.pdf). $B002 means

$B = it's a bootable test card with an icon
$002 = The card's ID is 2.

Note that the IO test card's ROM had the card code $F001. The extra on bit in $F means the card has a "status program" that the ROM executes whenever (I think) it's doing the I/O card test and also when you select the card for booting (according to the manual).

Irrelevant play-by-play tangent if you're interested:
The next word ($3FD) is how many bytes the boot ROM should use when computing the checksum of this data (and for my ROM, the checksum had better match the literal last word, $8262). $4E75 is the entire "status program" for this ROM, which the ROM already politely told the Lisa not to call, but if it does, $4E75 is the RTS instruction, so no harm done. $6002 is what the Lisa initially executes when it wishes to boot from this card, and that's BRA.S $06, or jump past the icon pointer $0295 and some other data and carry on from $00000010, if I'm not mistaken.

Reverse-engineering the rest from disassembly is probably not the hardest thing in the world to do. Of course, note the AWAITING APPLE INPUT string at the bottom, too.

I guess I should stick this card in a Lisa and see what happens. I expect it won't differ much from what the I/O test card does.

00000000: b002 03fd 4e75 6002 0295 2e7c 0000 0380  ....Nu`....|....
00000010: 41fa ffee 43fa 07e8 247c 0000 0380 34d8  A...C...$|....4.
00000020: b3c8 66fa 2038 02a4 e088 ee88 33c0 00fc  ..f. 8......3...
00000030: e800 42b8 0110 7a0a 7c01 47fa 029c 4eb9  ..B...z.|.G...N.
00000040: 00fe 0088 41fa ffba 43fa 000c 93c8 d3fc  ....A...C.......
00000050: 0000 0380 4ed1 6014 008c 0148 0178 0126  ....N.`....H.x.&
00000060: 0148 0178 01be 01a4 01fa 01e0 2c7c 0000  .H.x........,|..
00000070: 0380 2a7c 00fc a001 49fa 0006 6000 0036  ..*|....I...`..6
00000080: 6000 000a 45fa 0006 6000 004a 4287 45fa  `...E...`..JB.E.
00000090: 0006 6000 0050 49fa 0006 6000 01d8 4600  ..`..PI...`...F.
000000a0: 0c00 0009 62e6 0240 00ff d040 3236 0058  ....b..@...@26.X
000000b0: 4ef6 1000 422d 0004 422d 0006 4215 1b7c  N...B-..B-..B..|
000000c0: 00ff 0002 1b7c 0024 0004 1b7c 0024 0006  .....|.$...|.$..
000000d0: 4a15 4ed4 4a2d 0006 6afa 4a2d 0002 1b40  J.N.J-..j.J-...@
000000e0: 0002 4ed2 4a2d 0004 6afa 1015 4ed2 4280  ..N.J-..j...N.B.
000000f0: 45fa 0004 60ee e148 45fa 0004 60e6 e188  E...`..HE...`...
00000100: 45fa 0004 60de e188 45fa 0004 60d6 2040  E...`...E...`. @
00000110: 4ed4 4280 45fa 0004 60ca e148 45fa 0004  N.B.E...`..HE...
00000120: 60c2 2200 4ed4 49fa 0006 6000 00e8 4e90  `.".N.I...`...N.
00000130: 2e7c 0000 0380 2c7c 0000 0380 2a7c 00fc  .|....,|....*|..
00000140: a001 4280 6000 ff3e 49fa 0006 6000 00c6  ..B.`..>I...`...
00000150: 4287 5341 6500 0016 1018 49fa 0006 6000  B.SAe.....I...`.
00000160: 0114 45fa 0006 6000 ff6c 60e6 49fa 0006  ..E...`..l`.I...
00000170: 6000 010c 6000 ff16 49fa 0006 6000 0096  `...`...I...`...
00000180: 4287 5341 65e6 45fa 0006 6000 ff58 1080  B.SAe.E...`..X..
00000190: b1fc 00fc 0000 6402 1018 49fa 0006 6000  ......d...I...`.
000001a0: 00d4 60de 49fa 0006 6000 ff44 49fa 0006  ..`.I...`..DI...
000001b0: 6000 ff60 1010 5341 66fa 6000 fec8 49fa  `..`..SAf.`...I.
000001c0: 0006 6000 ff2a 49fa 0006 6000 ff46 45fa  ..`..*I...`..FE.
000001d0: 0006 6000 ff10 1080 5341 66fa 6000 fea6  ..`.....SAf.`...
000001e0: 49fa 0006 6000 ff08 49fa 0006 6000 ff24  I...`...I...`..$
000001f0: 4a58 5341 66fa 6000 fe8c 49fa 0006 6000  JXSAf.`...I...`.
00000200: feee 49fa 0006 6000 ff0a 30c8 5341 66fa  ..I...`...0.SAf.
00000210: 6000 fe72 264c 49fa 0006 6000 fed2 49fa  `..r&LI...`...I.
00000220: 0006 6000 feee 4280 2408 7608 7804 e7ba  ..`...B.$.v.x...
00000230: 1002 49fa 0006 6000 003c 5344 66f0 4282  ..I...`..<SDf.B.
00000240: 3401 e67a 1002 49fa 0006 6000 0028 e77a  4..z..I...`..(.z
00000250: 1002 49fa 0006 6000 001c 49fa 0006 6000  ..I...`...I...`.
00000260: 001e 45fa 0006 6000 fe7c 4a00 6600 fe1e  ..E...`..|J.f...
00000270: 284b 4ed4 0240 00ff de40 e35f 4ed4 3007  (KN..@...@._N.0.
00000280: 45fa 0006 6000 fe4e e048 45fa 0006 6000  E...`..N.HE...`.
00000290: fe44 4ed4 0081 0298 ffff ffe1 01ff ff80  .DN.............
000002a0: fcff ffdf 40f7 c03d 8007 70cf 0890 ff3c  ....@..=..p....<
000002b0: 0810 0410 cf03 e0f3 725e 3c39 8c01 8cdf  ........r^<9....
000002c0: 0cfb 38fc 7252 df03 63ea ad80 013c c006  ..8.rR..c....<..
000002d0: 1550 cf3f f8ff ffff 4157 4149 5449 4e47  .P.?....AWAITING
000002e0: 2041 5050 4c45 2049 4e50 5554 0000 0000   APPLE INPUT....
*
000007f0: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 8262  ...............b
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 11, 2020, 08:55:39 pm
Unfortunately a bit of an anticlimax in the Lisa, since data bit 5 is stuck high. I don't think that this is due to my desoldering the ROM, but it's possible. If I'm honest, I just forgot that BLU could dump expansion card ROMs, which is a bit embarrassing. A bit of probing will find out for sure.

A look at the ROM data from BLU showed the problem. The DMA test card is not so complicated and it won't be too hard to find replacements for most of the chips if necessary. (It might not be---there are a few scratches on the card, and maybe one of them has bridged a pair of traces somewhere.) So, another project for the project pile.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: compu_85 on July 12, 2020, 09:54:31 am
I messaged the seller about the software collection, they said the lowest they would take is $500 for the lot. Too right for my blood..
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: blusnowkitty on July 13, 2020, 09:13:36 am
I messaged the seller about the software collection, they said the lowest they would take is $500 for the lot. Too right for my blood..

This the big lot of Apple II/III, Twiggy, and cassette tapes?
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: compu_85 on July 13, 2020, 09:16:34 am
Yes.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: blusnowkitty on July 13, 2020, 11:54:01 am
I'm young and I have nothing to live for... Does anyone know if ADTPro on an Apple II can dump Apple III disks? I'd assume so since I've heard Disk ][ drives can work unmodified on a III with an adapter cable, but you know what they say about assuming.

Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 13, 2020, 12:19:00 pm
Wow, good luck!

We have from here (https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-12-23-disk-from-images-apple.htm) that "ADTPro can even write disks for the Apple III", so I'm guessing it ought to be able to read them, too.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: rayarachelian on July 13, 2020, 01:41:57 pm
I'm young and I have nothing to live for... Does anyone know if ADTPro on an Apple II can dump Apple III disks? I'd assume so since I've heard Disk ][ drives can work unmodified on a III with an adapter cable, but you know what they say about assuming.

Liar! You've got plenty to live for, such as Lisas, UniPlus on Lisas, rare prototype cards, Apple ///'s. I mean, what else is there?
After all: https://github.com/rayarachelian/lisaem/blob/a4a7fb1bcc68132f754e8e089012f76e43342c78/src/host/wxui/lisaem_wx.cpp#L8672
Code: [Select]
  "Conan, what is best in life? To emulate LOS, see your documents driven before you, and hear the lamentation of Windows.",
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: snuci on July 20, 2020, 10:10:38 pm
I messaged the seller about the software collection, they said the lowest they would take is $500 for the lot. Too right for my blood..

This the big lot of Apple II/III, Twiggy, and cassette tapes?

FYI, I bought the Apple II/III, Twiggy and Fluke tape lot.  As noted in the original eBay auction via the desk name plate, it was from Ed Goodwin.  Ed was an engineer at Apple and can be seen in these pictures from Digibarn here with the Lisa Development unit. http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/apple-lisa1/index.html

Among the pictures is an internal Profile drive.  In another auction from the same seller, I acquired a prototype internal 5MB Profile controller and mounting plate.  I think I may have been able to make a complete internal Profile with this controller and a normal Profile in parts but sadly, the package was lost a few weeks ago in transit and it is gone forever.   A picture of the Profile controller is attached.  Clearly, this never made it as a product as I have only ever seen one other.

Anyway, I have an Applesauce disk archiving unit so I will try to archive the 5.25" floppies depending on what they look like when they arrive.  I also purchased some hard drives from the Ed Goodwin collection so I'll take a look at those soon and see if there is anything interesting.  Hopefully there is something we can use.  I can also try to use Blu on the Twiggy floppies to archive the two of them as well.  I don't know what to do with the Fluke tapes.

Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: Lisa2 on July 21, 2020, 11:35:14 am
Here's some more interesting stuff that seller has put up...
Only known surviving copy of WidEx? https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-APPLE-COMPUTERS-WIDGET-STATUS-MONITOR-CARD-DISKETTE-LISA-1985/303595450646

I currently have possession of the Apple /// Widget test disk (WidEx) and monitor card from this auction.  The disk is good.

(http://)

Rick
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: blusnowkitty on July 21, 2020, 12:24:53 pm
It may not be Lisa WideX but the fact that any version of WideX survived is amazing!
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: patrick on July 21, 2020, 01:17:06 pm
Oops -- I thougth this was already on bitsavers? I have uploaded my versions to the files section, https://lisalist2.com/index.php/topic,105.msg691.html#msg691 (https://lisalist2.com/index.php/topic,105.msg691.html#msg691). Apple /// WidEx provided the name for my UsbWidEx project http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/patrick/UsbWidEx.htm (http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/patrick/UsbWidEx.htm).

Your version seems to be three weeks younger than mine. Glad to see this!


BTW: I have never heard of a Lisa-based version of WidEx. Except for NeoWidEx https://github.com/stepleton/NeoWidEx (https://github.com/stepleton/NeoWidEx) of course  :) . As far as I know Apple's Disk Group worked with Apple /// systems.


Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: blusnowkitty on July 21, 2020, 05:36:51 pm
BTW: I have never heard of a Lisa-based version of WidEx. Except for NeoWidEx https://github.com/stepleton/NeoWidEx (https://github.com/stepleton/NeoWidEx) of course  :) . As far as I know Apple's Disk Group worked with Apple /// systems.

I was under the impression there was a WideX for Lisa based on http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/apple/disk/widget/Widex_May84.pdf which admittedly, even that is based on the mentions of "pulldown menus" a couple times in the document.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 21, 2020, 06:35:11 pm
Oh how fantastic to see all of this software and material emerge! Thanks to all of you for saving these items.

If these Widex copies become more available in a public place (since the LisaList2 files section requires a login), I'll update https://github.com/stepleton/NeoWidEx#other-notes , which says there aren't any "readily available" copies today. :)

Has anyone seen anything Applenet-related in this collection of auctioned materials? I am slowly beginning to investigate my Applenet cards again. It's probably an off-and-on thing, but it would be nice to have more hardware to make progress, particularly one of these hubs (https://guidebookgallery.org/pics/extras/spotlights/lisa/secrets/lisahub.big.jpg). I don't think it's very complicated inside.

@snuci, I am gradually building up some techniques for recovering data from mouldy Twiggy disks. If the condition of your own disks seems dubious, we can share what we know.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: blusnowkitty on July 21, 2020, 08:59:26 pm
Has anyone seen anything Applenet-related in this collection of auctioned materials? I am slowly beginning to investigate my Applenet cards again. It's probably an off-and-on thing, but it would be nice to have more hardware to make progress, particularly one of these hubs (https://guidebookgallery.org/pics/extras/spotlights/lisa/secrets/lisahub.big.jpg). I don't think it's very complicated inside.

I've been watching the guy's stuff since it first started showing up and I haven't seen any AppleNet cards unfortunately. If we can source a schematic or some internal pics of the hub, I can give it a best shot at cloning the PCB. Just wish I had another Lisa.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: patrick on July 22, 2020, 04:02:12 am
If these Widex copies become more available in a public place (since the LisaList2 files section requires a login), I'll update https://github.com/stepleton/NeoWidEx#other-notes , which says there aren't any "readily available" copies today. :)

That should go to bitsavers.org, where all the other Widget- and ProFile-related stuff is. I was surprised not finding it there.


BTW: Tom was too polite to post a link to his AppleNet repository on Github. Many interesting stuff there!
https://github.com/stepleton/applenet
Cloning the PCB should not be too difficult, integrating it into LisaOS and maybe MacWorks might be a bigger issue.

The physical layer for AppleNet is a transformer-coupled differential signal, similar to EtherNet. That means the internals of the hub will be similar to a passive Ethernet hub. Pulse transformers and some logic to route the Tx signals from one port to the Rx of all others. The 10base-T physical layer patent should explain how this works.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 22, 2020, 05:00:45 am
PS: as part of resuming my AppleNet investigations over the past couple of days, I've revisited the schematic and corrected a couple of errors, particularly around the network connector. I need to triple-check and re-upload those corrections; hoping to do that in the next week or so!

That network connector is an odd one---it's basically a DIN-7 with the top pin deleted. I was hoping to make a crossover cable for connecting my two network cards to each other, but I realised that I wasn't quite sure how they should work, and that's when I discovered the schematic bugs, and so on...
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: patrick on July 22, 2020, 08:41:57 am
In your current schematic ("2 years ago") you have pin 1 Tx-, pin 3 Tx+ and pin 2 GND on the transmitter side. The receiver side looks somewhat confunsing: you have pin 4 Rx-, pin 5 Rx+ and pin 6 GNDA. And there is a resistor from pin Rx- to GndA which I would expect at the transformer center pin. So this might deserve to be re-checked.

Nevertheless, connect Rx+ to Tx+ (transformer top to transformer top), Tx- to Rx- (transformer bottom to transformer bottom), and (any) Gnd to Gnd and it should work.

If this does not work just reverse + and - on one side. Polarity of the windings might not be reproduced properly in the schematic. This is difficult to see without unwinding the pulse transformers.


Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 23, 2020, 06:11:49 pm
I've diagnosed the problem with my DMA test card: a broken trace, which I fixed.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/TkYWDHunxTMNLtHv9

Starting the Lisa now shows the card's boot icon, which is cute!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/376abXd45SacRPgY9

An attempt to boot from the card shows behaviour similar to what was observed for the I/O test card:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ms3inkRd7QdxNXfU9

The Error 90 is a strange one---that means "no card" according to the boot ROM source code, although it also looks like the value is never used by any of the code in the boot ROM! I think it's a red herring. Anyway, you can see parts of the same "WAITING FOR APPLE" message that the other test card had (and which we can see in that ROM dump I shared).
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 23, 2020, 08:23:00 pm
In re the AppleNet card, I believe the attached image shows a more accurate description of what's going on around the network connector. You can see that the pinout of T1 threw me.

The pinouts of transformers T1 and T2 are still guesses---on the card they are mainly unmarked boxes with no ability to see inside. This evening I made measurements with an ohmmeter on the two AppleNet cards I own in order to figure out which pins were the centre taps. I'm basing my guesses on tiny differences in resistance, but this was remarkably consistent across both cards.

As Patrick noted, connections to pins 3,2 or 5,6 of the connector may need to be swapped, or perhaps even both pairs if the current arrangement puts the pulses upside-down on both sides. I'd like to hope that the it's not the case that a single pair needs flipping: if not, the plug has a nice rotational symmetry, and you can turn a crossover cable into a straight-through cable by flipping it upside down. (You would have to do something about the keying on the shell of the DIN connector, of course.)

The github repo with my schematic (https://github.com/stepleton/applenet) has been updated. There are one or two more things I'd like to check, so some additional updates may follow soon.

Unfortunately one of my AppleNet cards seems ill---it hangs during the boot ROM card test some of the time. The problem may be mechanical---it seems like sometimes it'll make it past the test if I flex the card during boot. I'm not certain of this, though.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: blusnowkitty on July 24, 2020, 09:25:52 am
Here's something I just thought of: Has anyone tried booting their I/O and DMA (and maybe AppleNet?) cards in a Lisa 1, or at least a 2/5 with a 1 ROM? I'd be very interested to find out if all those cards are expecting something in the Lisa 1 ROM that was taken out for the Lisa 2/5 ROM and beyond.
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 24, 2020, 11:03:37 am
Yes, my video was from a Lisa 1 :)

There is not much stuff in the cards' boot ROMs for a very different result, I don't think.

It might be interesting to see what it does when an AppleNet card is also installed. Perhaps it will wait for a test program to come in over the network. I will probably try this soon.


(edited to clarify which boot ROMs I meant.)
Title: Re: Another Prototype Lisa Card
Post by: stepleton on July 26, 2020, 06:40:25 am
To update: it looks like nothing different happens when an AppleNet card is installed.