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 21 
 on: April 20, 2021, 09:00:39 pm 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by stepleton
I think that our GAL uses the flops. We don't really need to recover its programming --- the linked JEDEC file on Bitsavers tells us how the GAL has been wired, since the Apple folks kindly left it unlocked for us. It's more a matter of trying to get a functional understanding --- what's it doing, what do the control lines mean, that sort of thing.

 22 
 on: April 20, 2021, 06:47:31 pm 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by rayarachelian
You could pretend the GAL is a ROM and "dump" it by writing to the input bits and reading from the output bits. First figure out which pins are inputs and which are outputs from the schematic.

This won't work for any flops, but will work for most other things, I suppose if you change the input bit order you can detect any implemented flops by comparing the outputs to the previous ones you saw.

i.e. say you have 8 input lines, start from 00000000 and work your way to 11111111 and record all the outputs to a file.
Repeat but this time start from 11111111 and work down to 00000000. Any bits that differ should be tied to something that is related to state.

Also see if this helps: https://github.com/psurply/ReGAL

 23 
 on: April 20, 2021, 05:01:54 pm 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by stepleton
My long-term AppleNet understanding project has returned to the back burner again as I work on other projects. Everything these days is power supplies! It's not just the Lisa --- I had to put a modern replacement in my weird old workstation, and I'm also now trying to design a voltage protection circuit now to help keep my old IBM hardware from doing the HP 9825T. Slim odds of replacing those custom IBM parts if the PSU goes unregulated.

Huh? Oh, sorry, I distracted myself. Anyway, I was making okay progress until it started to become time to understand the GAL (note: contents on bitsavers, thankfully) --- at the time, I kinda concluded that it would be hard to understand what the Z8 code was doing without understanding a bit about what the GAL was up to, but then looking over at the GAL, it seemed it would also be harder to figure out what it does without (a) some hint or (b) understanding what the Z8 was asking it to do.

Nothing impossible, it is reverse engineering after all, but tempting to put off until later. So that's what I did! Anyway, I'd think that to know if a modern Z8 could work with the original code, it would be important to know what was timing-critical, and for that I think it's important to know what the GAL does. Someday I'll get back to it... unless someone beats me to it! hint hint...

 24 
 on: April 20, 2021, 03:25:43 pm 
Started by rayarachelian - Last post by rayarachelian
I think David Craig's historical material is going to end up being the best surviving generally available history of the project.

Funnily enough, DTC's materials were the first I saw, and they are the most extensive. But, they're mostly memos, internal docs, etc. There's no day to day war stories and anecdotes, like you see off folklore.org like "Too Big For His Britches" or the one about mustaches and managers.

From Tesler, I would have liked to know and understand how the Xerox PARC projects morphed into the Lisa, how that flowed from one project to the other, what decisions were made and how, what was the thinking process behind those decisions, was it something at the team level or was it individual sparks of inspiration and what caused those... There's probably a ton of stuff there that the public doesn't know that could be useful to learn from. I'm sure some of it is documented, and much is lost.

I mentioned this elsewhere on here, but Dan Kotke mentioned in "Valley of Genius" that the Lisa was named "Lisa" as a snub to Steve Jobs, and so that explains why once kicked off the Lisa team, he went all Bender "I'm going to go build my own theme park, with blackjack and hookers," in the form of the Mac as revenge. It also explains why in "Small Fry" when Lisa Jobs asked Steve if he had named the Lisa after her, he said no, but when Bono asked if the Lisa was named after her (not if Jobs named it after her) he said yes.

That little tiny bit that leaked out in that book explains the whole Pirates vs Navy thing and the Mac project. Other stuff from Fire in the Valley and "The Pirates of Silicon Valley" explain quite a lot more about his vindictive/abusive nature.
The same thing happened to the Newton, and a decade later after killing the Newton off, he built an iPad. The supposed excuse being that real computers have keyboards, ignoring the terrible keyboards phones and tablets have on-screen.
Both the Lisa and the Newton were way ahead of their time. The Newton after the 130 was very usable. The Lisa would have done a lot better if it was released in 1985 instead of 1983, when RAM prices were much lower...

While he's had a big positive influence on Apple, he turned it very much evil by closing things off. The lack of expansion slots in the original Mac, and modern day Macs, the closed walled off garden of the iPhone with the store, and the de-generalizing of the macos into a walled garden with a gatekeeper, signed and notarized binaries, monopolistic stores, glued in batteries, soldered in RAM, and SSD storage, a general disregard for recycling and repairability, etc.
Granted when he did return to Apple, Apple did have too many models, all alike and needed a clean up, it did need a new Mac OS, and for a while they had kept backwards compatibility with System 9 in macos x. But then they removed it after 10.5.
I suspect we'll see a similar removal of x86_64 compatibility in future macos or M1.5/M2 releases after getting most people to switch over. (This ofc effectively killed off the hackintoshes as well, or will do so once x86_64 is no longer supported.) and then we'll have to run things in emulators again.
Seeing the 2012 retina Macs with their super glarey glossy screens, and glued in batteries and soldered in RAM is what sealed the deal for me to move fully to Linux. It took until 2017 for me to do that as that's when my 2011 17' died. But yeah. At some point the negatives add up to too much and scales tip to "not worth it anymore."


 25 
 on: April 20, 2021, 01:26:12 pm 
Started by rayarachelian - Last post by Al Kossow
Unfortunately Larry Tesler didn't agree to be interviewed for it in time, and so his stories and views about it were permanently lost to history outside of what was already published.

--

Larry and Chris Espinosa gave a talk on the development of Lisa at CHM just before Larry resigned as Apple's chief scientist, a video exists of that one.
I was at an internal version of that talk, and asked LOTS of questions. I keep hoping it was taped and wound up in Stanford's collection when the Apple
Library was closed. Other than Rich Page, I haven't been able to get anyone from the Lisa team to talk to me about the project in the past 10 years.
I think David Craig's historical material is going to end up being the best surviving generally available history of the project.

 26 
 on: April 20, 2021, 12:37:19 pm 
Started by mjposner - Last post by mjposner
"I don't think 3 grand is a fair price for a non-running system"  Fair enough, then what is it worth?

 27 
 on: April 20, 2021, 11:31:30 am 
Started by mjposner - Last post by Lisa2
Fair price?  Suggestions

You asked for comments, here is mine:

I don't think 3 grand is a fair price for a non-running system.  I know it ran when it was parked, but one can only assume the worst if it not working now.  If you really need to get that kind of money, my suggestion is get her working ( folks here will be glad help you with this ) or part her out.   :'(

Rick

 28 
 on: April 20, 2021, 07:16:17 am 
Started by mjposner - Last post by mjposner
The Lisa worked fine for years, was rarely turned on.  A few years ago it started up but the hard drive failed to boot and there was an error code on the screen.  I shut her off and did not try again until a few weeks ago.  Now nothing on start up.  No smells or burning at all.

I will take more pictures and post shortly

 29 
 on: April 20, 2021, 12:40:33 am 
Started by sigma7 - Last post by rayarachelian
I'm fine with uploading any types of files here, the forum itself has some limits on allowed types, I think I recall disabling that and having to mess around with it some more. If you run into issues try encapsulating the files with zip or tar.xz, etc.

In the absolute worst case I can throw more money at the hosting provider for a larger instance/storage if necessary.

The goal of LisaList2 is indeed longevity. If I should ever lose interest in the Lisa, or be somehow unable to continue running the forum, it is possible for the other three admins here to download the whole forum, etc. and resurrect it elsewhere. I should probably make better contingency plans than that, but yeah, that is the idea.

I haven't seen stuff being removed from archive.org or bitsavers - perhaps it has happened, though I'm not sure I'd use github for things like ROMs/disk images, etc. This is one reason why the files forum requires a login to view. That said, there is one post on archive.org called the apple lisa tosec uploaded by someone else: https://archive.org/details/Apple_Lisa_TOSEC_2012_04_23 - so likely they would also be friendly.

My advice in terms of the goals of archiving and preservation would be to upload whatever binaries/firmware/etc. to as many friendly places as possible. So that would certainly include LisaList2 as well as bitsavers, archive.org, macintoshgarden, macintoshrepository, etc.

Many of us are aging, and those who were around during the Lisa's creation are starting to go (i.e. Raskin, Larry Tesler, Jobs, etc.) and with this virus, who knows who'll kick the bucket next, etc. So if we are going to save all this information, it needs to be a concerted, planned, effort. Not saying that to sound morbid, but rather, from the point of view of my understand of the Lisa is through first hand experience at using it. I got my first one around 1988, and it has served also as my first Mac. I was exposed to the original Mac and many iterations thereof, I've seen a lot of the ads and FUD and propaganda as well as seeing it unfairly called a flop over and over. As is the norm, the winners write the history books, and the new generations that come after us will not have the benefit of first hand information, and certainly not the hands on experience. This is where emulators can help, but also keeping documentation and other artifacts as well as demos and writing down personal experiences.

For example I know our stone age ancestors were able to pick up rocks and break them and create stone knives and spear heads, but I've no clue how to do any of that. Similarly, I imagine future generations will have no idea how to use a Lisa, or a Mac for that matter... That Audible podcast about the Lisa was clearly made by someone with good intentions but no actual experience with a Lisa. Let's help change that...

Hmm, I think we probably need a terms of use and also a privacy policy long term. Yes, there are cookies if you login, and I'm not sure if SMF sets them if you're not logged in and the implications in the EU side, I generally don't care about such things, but then, I don't care to add ads or tracking either and I only look through the logs to deal with hacking attempts, rather than to de-anonymize users, or advertise to them.

I'm totally fine with announcing new Lisa related products on here, or things related to the Lisa that may be off topic but still of interest to our hobby, like the RetroBridgeBBS, frogfind, Classzilla/10FourFox, etc. or if someone asks, mentioning an X/ProFile/floppyEmu/aphid/usb2lisa, etc.

I did see a couple of new users who set up ads in their signatures and blocked them, and the hosting provider has informed me of a couple of DDoS attempts in the past that they protected again, but mostly it's been a good clean place without trolls or other nasties, and I'd like to keep it that way.

I'm totally fine with uploading documentation, BLU/floppy/twiggy images, firmware, schematics, commented disassemblies (or autogenerated via Ghidra, etc.) 3D scans for 3D printing Lisa case parts, PCBs in KiCad or Eagle or whatever format, photos, even Motorola 68000 reference guides, etc... all as long as they're Lisa (or early Mac related) to the Files forum. Obviously do compress them with a modern compressor like xz if possible, zip otherwise, and shrink down any PDFs and images to reasonable resolutions if possible before uploading, etc.

For some things hires is better, for example if you have some rare Lisa expansion slot card, a high res photo of both the front and the back where you can read the chip labels is vital (as ofc are the firmwares on it.)

This is just my $0.02 and not the final word of the law, set in stone, etc. We can vote on these things as needed, and totally open to all ideas. I don't see my role here as dictator, benevolent or otherwise, but rather, more like janitorial staff, or librarian. Not my first choice in life to run a forum, but it is fun and enjoyable to be part of it, I'd much rather spend more time writing LisaEm code than administratrivia, but what must be done, will be done.


 30 
 on: April 19, 2021, 10:04:43 pm 
Started by blusnowkitty - Last post by blusnowkitty
You can use a MME UB8820M (U882) or UB8840M (U884) as Z8603 replacement. These are easily available at ebay and rather cheap.
Refer to http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/patrick/Z8emu.htm

Yeah I've seen that and it's a good to know. I was just more curious if anyone had tried running the ProFile ROMs (or now that I think about it, the AppleNet ROM) on a modern-day Z8. Looking into it more it seems they've reworked the Z8 core so it completes instructions a lot faster.

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