LisaList2

General Category => LisaList2 => Topic started by: snuci on April 28, 2020, 06:38:10 pm

Title: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on April 28, 2020, 06:38:10 pm
Hi All,

I am a fairly experienced Lisa owner.  I have several variations including two 2/5s and three 2/10s with enough drives to cover most configurations including a Widget drive, 5 MB Profile, 10 MB Profile, 20 MB SunRem and X-Profile.  I recently got a hold of a Lisa 1 with Twiggy drives that still had the batteries in it :(  The motherboard and I/O boards are in the process of being restored (just got my replacement card edge connectors today).   In the meantime, I am using parts from other units to get it running. 

I don't have any Twiggy disks so I haven't gotten that far yet but I have bought some HD floppies so I will try to make some.  If someone has a template, I would appreciate it.  Up to this morning, I was getting an Error 48 when trying to boot from one of two Profiles that were in the lot.  The second Profile has an issue with power on self test as it basically doesn't do it and the stepper motor doesn't move like normal.  The needs some attention too.  My ROMs are 341-0175/341-0176 Rev B and I have confirmed they are okay.

My latest update is using one of my existing 5MB Profiles to boot but it gets part way and hangs.  I may have MacWorks Plus on it so I'll have to check that.  Anyway, thought I'd post about the progress. 

stepleton contacted me through Facebook where I have posted pictures.  His explanation of Error 48 (Illegal Instruction error) had me down the trail of CPU or memory board issue as is stated in one of the guides but I could be trying to boot from a data Profile which makes total sense.  I don't know what is on either of the Profiles. 

Anyway, glad to be here and I hope it ends up in a working Lisa 1.  I'll post as I progress through this.  I would like to have the original motherboard and IO board in the computer but I need to figure out how to make some Twiggy floppies first.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: rayarachelian on April 28, 2020, 06:57:18 pm
There's a hires (relatively) image here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/disk/twiggy/photos/3M_Fileware.jpg
you can print it out and cut it. You can then use it as a template. The square notches should be easy to cut with scissors.

You'll need some way to open the jacket, remove the cookie without damaging it or touching it (or wear gloves), and cut the 2nd set of oval windows in the jacket. They should be the same size as the normal ones, just on the other end. And you'll want blank disks without labels on them.

I'd guess an xacto knife would work well, but perhaps you can build something by bending sharpening a can of tuna with a whetstone and then use pliers to bend the shape of the window and then pressing down hard.

You can probably still buy them from here: https://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html not sure if you'll need HD or DSDD, I'd try with both and see which work better. Maybe degauss them before you format them if they're PC formatted.

You should be able to restore the disks with BLU, likely you'll need to install BLU to a hard drive first, and then use it to transfer twiggy images to restore.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on April 28, 2020, 07:50:43 pm
There's a hires (relatively) image here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/disk/twiggy/photos/3M_Fileware.jpg
you can print it out and cut it. You can then use it as a template. The square notches should be easy to cut with scissors.

Thanks Ray.  That is helpful.  I'll give it a shot.  I have some floppies I've ordered but I may be able to find a spare 5.25" HD diskette somewhere. 

I will also use my X/Profile and make a BLU hard drive image and see how that works out.  Have to take apart another Lisa for that. 

Santo 
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on April 28, 2020, 07:53:25 pm
Attached is an image of my measurements of the various "extra" notches on an Apple-branded FileWare diskette (original image from Wikipedia). I don't think sub-millimetre accuracy is required, but I've added it all the same. Otherwise, using another 5.25" disk as a stencil for cutting the second read/write head window is the way to go.

If you have a working Twiggy drive+disk, I wouldn't think it necessary to install to a hard drive---you can write the serial-bootstrapped BLU directly to the floppy and then boot from that in future, reading and writing hard drive images over the serial port all the while. At least, that's how I like to do it :-)

One thing I might be careful of is to make sure that the sense hole next to the spindle hole determines where you cut these extra notches.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on April 28, 2020, 08:55:24 pm
Attached is an image of my measurements of the various "extra" notches on an Apple-branded FileWare diskette (original image from Wikipedia). I don't think sub-millimetre accuracy is required, but I've added it all the same. Otherwise, using another 5.25" disk as a stencil for cutting the second read/write head window is the way to go.

Thank you.  Those measurements help a lot.  I was thinking about creating and 3d printing a template but let's see where I get.  I am still working during these times so I don't have as much time as many others seem to and I am okay with that.

Quote
If you have a working Twiggy drive+disk, I wouldn't think it necessary to install to a hard drive---you can write the serial-bootstrapped BLU directly to the floppy and then boot from that in future, reading and writing hard drive images over the serial port all the while. At least, that's how I like to do it :-)

One thing I might be careful of is to make sure that the sense hole next to the spindle hole determines where you cut these extra notches.

Sounds better than taking apart another Lisa.  I'll try the serial method first.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: blusnowkitty on April 29, 2020, 08:56:32 am
Wow, awesome find regardless. I hope I can one day get a Lisa 1 :D

If it's not against the rules to ask, would you be able to dump the boot ROM and the I/O ROM? I don't think ROM B exists anywhere online and it would be great to preserve it.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: rayarachelian on April 29, 2020, 09:14:13 am
Wow, awesome find regardless. I hope I can one day get a Lisa 1 :D

If it's not against the rules to ask, would you be able to dump the boot ROM and the I/O ROM? I don't think ROM B exists anywhere online and it would be great to preserve it.

Nope, not against the rules, but it is all boot ROM versions are available on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/firmware/
http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/firmware/341-0175-B.BIN and http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/firmware/341-0176-B.BIN

That said, you're better off with version "D" for Lisa 1's and "H" for Lisa 2's as they fix bugs.  D is actually compatible with both 1s and 2s. I couldn't tell you exactly what bugs, but if you really care you can read the source code for H and see the changes between B and C,D to see what was fixed, you can find that here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/firmware/

What I don't see are the I/O ROM version 40 (for twiggies), A8 (88 and its source is up there), and the hacked SunRem version that allows 800K double sided floppies. There's apparently a Lisa driver for the double sided floppy up on macintosh garden: https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/lisa-office-system-800k-driver
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: blusnowkitty on April 29, 2020, 09:54:13 am
Nope, not against the rules, but it is all boot ROM versions are available on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/firmware/
http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/firmware/341-0175-B.BIN and http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/firmware/341-0176-B.BIN

That said, you're better off with version "D" for Lisa 1's and "H" for Lisa 2's as they fix bugs.  D is actually compatible with both 1s and 2s. I couldn't tell you exactly what bugs, but if you really care you can read the source code for H and see the changes between B and C,D to see what was fixed, you can find that here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/firmware/

Hey thanks for that! Somehow I never found that link when I was searching for ROMs for mine.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on April 29, 2020, 12:22:43 pm
What I don't see are the I/O ROM version 40 (for twiggies), A8 (88 and its source is up there), and the hacked SunRem version that allows 800K double sided floppies. There's apparently a Lisa driver for the double sided floppy up on macintosh garden: https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/lisa-office-system-800k-driver

My ROMs are here:  http://www.vintagecomputer.ca/files/Apple/Lisa/firmware/Lisa1/

The I/O ROM is marked 341-0138 Rev F 
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: patrick on April 29, 2020, 12:32:10 pm
You can probably still buy them from here: https://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html not sure if you'll need HD or DSDD, I'd try with both and see which work better. Maybe degauss them before you format them if they're PC formatted.

Twiggy disks have 46 tracks per side (62.5 tpi). Data density is around 9.500 FTPI with a rotational speed  of 218 rpm at the outer tracks and 320 rpm at the inner tracks. This gives you 22 blocks at the outside and 15 blocks at the center of the disk. Nominal coercitivity is 600 oe (24 kA/m), this is "HD" media.

If you hold the disc against a light source and the light shines through weakly, it is HD. SD/DD material is deep black.



BTW: keep in mind that if you replace the I/O board with one from a Lisa 2/5 a pulldown resistor has to be added to the SNS line (R47 = 1 kOhm).
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 02, 2020, 12:24:23 pm
Latest update:  I have all boards running and am able to start booting from a Profile with Lisa 7/7/ version 3.1 on it.  I know it works because I tried on another Lisa.  Whether I have the Twiggy floppies in or not, I get the following error.  Time o do a little more investigation.  I have not come across the 10738 error before. 

Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 02, 2020, 12:55:11 pm
Per PDF page 182 of http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/workshop_3.0/Lisa_Pascal_3.0_System_Software_1984.pdf (http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/workshop_3.0/Lisa_Pascal_3.0_System_Software_1984.pdf), that's "Can't find a required driver for the boot device."

I don't know, but I suspect 7/7 is not happy with your Twiggy drives or ROM version. I don't think 7/7 is meant to run on a Lisa 1. Can you copy this image (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0_fWRp3VVS4QXNoVmo1UmE4ZkU/view?usp=sharing) to your ProFile and boot it? (It's an Office System 1.0 install from my Lisa 1.)

None of the tools will run thanks to serialisation, but it should boot on your computer, I think.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 02, 2020, 01:10:23 pm
Per PDF page 182 of http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/workshop_3.0/Lisa_Pascal_3.0_System_Software_1984.pdf (http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/workshop_3.0/Lisa_Pascal_3.0_System_Software_1984.pdf), that's "Can't find a required driver for the boot device."

I don't know, but I suspect 7/7 is not happy with your Twiggy drives or ROM version. I don't think 7/7 is meant to run on a Lisa 1. Can you copy this image (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0_fWRp3VVS4QXNoVmo1UmE4ZkU/view?usp=sharing) to your ProFile and boot it? (It's an Office System 1.0 install from my Lisa 1.)

None of the tools will run thanks to serialisation, but it should boot on your computer, I think.

Thanks, I will try this.  I was wondering if all versions of Lisa Office would work. I just write this to a Cpact flash and use my X-Profile, I guess?  I just have to look for my compact flash writer now.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: rayarachelian on May 02, 2020, 01:11:24 pm
10738 isn't listed here: https://lisafaq.sunder.net/single.html#lisafaq-sw-los_error_codes (https://lisafaq.sunder.net/single.html#lisafaq-sw-los_error_codes) but errors near it indicate one of the OS files is unreadable.
Not very helpful, I know.

Don't worry about serialization, there's ways to remove that with a disk editor.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 02, 2020, 01:19:16 pm
Thanks, I will try this.  I was wondering if all versions of Lisa Office would work. I just write this to a Cpact flash and use my X-Profile, I guess?  I just have to look for my compact flash writer now.

The disk image is a BLU disk image, and so the easiest way to write it to a disk (including your X/ProFile) will be with BLU over a serial cable. I am not sure, but you may need to modify the image in order to put it on an X/ProFile directly.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 02, 2020, 01:22:57 pm
The disk image is a BLU disk image, and so the easiest way to write it to a disk (including your X/ProFile) will be with BLU over a serial cable. I am not sure, but you may need to modify the image in order to put it on an X/ProFile directly.

Okay, I have a BLU disk and I need for reformat a Proile hard drive anyway.  Let's see what I can figure out.  I just have to relearn stuff I haven't done in a few years now :)  BLU was a life saver back then.

Thanks Tom. 
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 02, 2020, 01:54:53 pm
I figured I would try a couple of Profiles to see what I had.  This was in the lot with this Lisa 1 (it came with 2 Profiles).  Oddly enough, this booted with Macworks + 1.0.1.8...

Clearly the Twiggy's won't work but that was wierd.  I am looking at the other Profile to see if I can fix it.  The stepper motor only moves a couple positions (it is free to move) and will not complete the self-test.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 02, 2020, 02:30:27 pm
Ha, I've never tried that one before. You sure don't see that every day.

MacWorks is said to boot from the Monitor, a kind of Apple-internal operating system that didn't see general-purpose use, but that was also the OS underlying the LisaGuide tutorial disks. Once you make some Twiggy diskettes, you'll be able to boot the various Apple-internal Twiggy versions from Bitsavers for yourself. They're not much to look at, but they are historic, I suppose.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 02, 2020, 02:43:07 pm
The second Profile had a RIFA filter cap blow up so other than it stinking in here, I do have LOS 2.0 on my X/Profile already.  Would that work with Twiggy's?
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 02, 2020, 03:18:01 pm
A very dim memory suggests maybe not? But it's probably worth a shot. I've never really used Office System 2.0.

One thing you could do is use BLU to backup one of your X/ProFile disks over the serial port, then upload my disk image via BLU onto that X/ProFile disk (overwriting what you've backed up), and finally, when you're done and you want to go back to the original setup, restore your backed-up disk image using BLU once more.

Commiseration about the RIFA---I know that stink---once it even inspired me to make a T-shirt (https://twitter.com/tstepleton/status/1164249266635845634)...
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: rayarachelian on May 02, 2020, 04:50:54 pm
Stare upon the eviiiil capacitor that Tom turned into a t-shirt. (and yes, I do want one!)
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 02, 2020, 06:45:36 pm
Well, it seems I can't get my Lisa serial port 2 to work so I can transfer the LOS 1.0  image to my X/Profile via BLU.  I will have to try another motherboard/card set tomorrow.  Gotta take apart another Lisa 2 for this.  Onward and upward tomorrow.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 02, 2020, 07:33:45 pm
If it's not one thing, it's another!

This might be easier: run BLU on one of your Lisa 2s and use that to do all of the hard drive image management. Then just move the hard drive (or X/ProFile) back and forth between the "BLU computer" and the Lisa 1.

I also had a problem on my Lisa 2/10 where serial port 2 stopped working. The good people of LisaList helped me find the chip on the I/O board that went bad, and ever since the replacement things have been fine. Something to fix for later :)
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: blusnowkitty on May 02, 2020, 08:53:58 pm
One thing you could do is use BLU to backup one of your X/ProFile disks over the serial port, then upload my disk image via BLU onto that X/ProFile disk (overwriting what you've backed up), and finally, when you're done and you want to go back to the original setup, restore your backed-up disk image using BLU once more.

For what it's worth, if you have a machine running Linux or macOS and a CF reader, you can also make backup copies by using dd. Probably much less hassle to dd to a disk image over USB than it is to wait for a serial connection to go through.

I feel you on the Rifa caps - I had both my Mac 128 and 512ke going once and both Rifas blew together. That was not fun.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 02, 2020, 09:17:48 pm
The problem there is that it may be a delicate operation to put the disk image into the right place on your X/ProFile CF card without disturbing the other disk images it holds.

Additionally, I think the "raw" format of X/ProFile data may differ somewhat substantially to the format of BLU disk images. I'm hazy on the details---basing what I say here on a browse through the X/ProFile manual quite a while ago. I seem to remember that there are several possible image formats called STARs, each optimised for different kinds of underlying media, including IDE hard drives and so forth. These formats organise the data in different ways, partly to accommodate the fact that ProFile blocks are 532 bytes, not 512 bytes.

If you do decide to explore this route, in any case, I think you will need to remove the first 532-byte block from my Lisa 1 BLU disk image in order to obtain a "raw" image file suitable for use with dd.

There is at least one ProFile emulator (https://github.com/stepleton/cameo/blob/master/aphid/README.md) out there that uses contiguous, raw disk image files on an ordinary FAT filesystem---but it's not very popular, was made by an amateur, and requires a bit of fine surface-mount soldering ;D
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: blusnowkitty on May 02, 2020, 09:44:38 pm
The problem there is that it may be a delicate operation to put the disk image into the right place on your X/ProFile CF card without disturbing the other disk images it holds.

Additionally, I think the "raw" format of X/ProFile data may differ somewhat substantially to the format of BLU disk images. I'm hazy on the details---basing what I say here on a browse through the X/ProFile manual quite a while ago. I seem to remember that there are several possible image formats called STARs, each optimised for different kinds of underlying media, including IDE hard drives and so forth. These formats organise the data in different ways, partly to accommodate the fact that ProFile blocks are 532 bytes, not 512 bytes.

If you do decide to explore this route, in any case, I think you will need to remove the first 532-byte block from my Lisa 1 BLU disk image in order to obtain a "raw" image file suitable for use with dd.

There is at least one ProFile emulator (https://github.com/stepleton/cameo/blob/master/aphid/README.md) out there that uses contiguous, raw disk image files on an ordinary FAT filesystem---but it's not very popular, was made by an amateur, and requires a bit of fine surface-mount soldering ;D

Ah, there is that. I have a ton of CF cards so I don't  bother with multiple images on one card. Just a straight dd off the card and back onto another works with me without issues.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 03, 2020, 05:37:11 pm
Lisa Office 2.0 won't work with the Lisa 1.  Here is an excerpt of a document I have:

CONVERSION TO THE LISA 2

By the time this is published most owners of the original Lisa will have converted to the Lisa
2. There are three parts to the conversion process: getting all you files ready to be
converted, making the actual hardware modifications, and updating to the new system
software.

The most troublesome (and potentially risky) part of the conversion is getting all your files
on the Profile drive before converting the hardware. This is necessary because the new
system does not have any software drivers for the old 51/4-inch disks drives
. If you convert
and then find some files you forgot, there is no easy way to recover them. For everyone
except developers the hardware conversion is done by a dealer. (Developers are given the
kit to make the conversion themselves.) It involves swapping the old 51/4-inch Apple
drives for the new 31/2-inch Sony drive, swapping some integrated-circuit chips, and
cutting one or two resistors off a board. In my case, the conversion went very smoothly.

The last step is to update the Profile drive with the new system software. All Lisa 2
conversion kits contain release 2.0 of the Lisa software system, which involve modifications
down at the disk-directory level. When you update the drive, all the file-formatting changes
are made at the same time, although users are not really aware that this is happening.
Once you have converted, you are unable to do a disk-to-disk; you must go through the
Profile drive as an intermediate step
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 06, 2020, 11:23:58 am
Figured I would post this here for my Lisa.

My Lisa has a weird date code and an early serial number.  Since it doesn't have a serial number tag, I had to get it from Service mode.  Someone has told me it may be a pre-production model but if not, it is definitely early.

240: FF 02 82 020 0166 0 FF

Plant=02  YY = 82   DDD = 020   Serial = 0166

250: 0010017504100000

AppleNET  Prefix=001   Number=00175


Update:  I have BLU on a CF card for Blu so I am just working on making a 3d printed template for Twiggy floppies now.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 09, 2020, 06:12:34 pm
Well,  I am getting there.

I went through five Profiles.  Two just shut down and stopped powering up (will have to look at those), one had RIFA fireworks and a smoke show, one just wouldn't complete a low-level-format with BLU and finally got one working.

I went through four keyboards.  Two were refoamed and I still don't have a properly closed working keyboard.  For now I just use my finger on the PCB. That will need some attention.

I went through several IO, CPU and memory boards along with card ages and parallel cards.  I thought my Serial B was not working but it turned out to be my serial cable.  Went through two serial cables and three gender changers to mate with the Serial B port.

Anyway, I now have a working booting LISA 1.0 system thanks to @stepleton and his BLU Profile image.  Thank you!  Sadly, I can't run any application because it is "not licensed" for my computer but I can deal with that later.  Picture attached.

My next adventure if is to test the Twiggy drives and I am in the process of 3D printing a template to make some floppies.  Once I have some floppies, I'll see what happens with the drives and I'll see if I can create Lisa OS 1.0 Twiggy floppies to try to do an installation (if I ever get that far).  Frustrating but will definitely pay off if I can get her going properly.

Thanks for the help and encouragement so far.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 09, 2020, 07:13:09 pm
Congratulations!

As a check, just after booting, do you hear the Twiggy drives "grunt" as they activate the ejection mechanism in either drive? At least, this is what happens on my Lisa 1. The ejection mechanism is also activated when I shut the Lisa back down.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 10, 2020, 04:08:50 pm
As a check, just after booting, do you hear the Twiggy drives "grunt" as they activate the ejection mechanism in either drive? At least, this is what happens on my Lisa 1. The ejection mechanism is also activated when I shut the Lisa back down.

I did make one disk which I think should be okay but I am not sure if it is functionally okay.   To make the disk, I cut the plastic melted plastic "rivets" on one side of the floppy diskette and unfolded the left side flap of the diskette; taking out the cookie.  I then cut the appropriate holes and put it back and glued the flap back into place.  Structurally, it should be okay but I am not 100% sure the cookie was unscathed.  My top drive acts like the video I am pointing to below.  Inserting the disk for the first time does it's initial checking.  You will hear a click in the background (that's the mouse button I clicked loudly) and then the disk was attempted to be initialized.  That didn't work so I ejected it.  The bottom drive doesn't move properly but I will investigate.

http://www.vintagecomputer.ca/files/Apple/Lisa/Testing/Twiggy.mp4

Is this normal or abnormal for the top drive?  I checked an online video by Alker33 and it is different but he also had a known good disk so is my head movement normal for a bad disk?

Thanks for any help.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 10, 2020, 06:05:34 pm
The video sounds normal until the heads assume that central position and do that "chunka chunka chunka chunka" thing. That's nothing I've seen before.

It's interesting also to see that the "chunkas" didn't happen when you tried the initialisation---but the heads still refused to retract any further than they do.

And yet, the heads clearly can retract fully when it comes time to unclamp and eject the disk, so it's not like there's a mechanical blocker. I don't have a lot of Twiggy repair experience, but I can't think of an obvious reason for the drive to refuse to retract the heads during ordinary seeks like yours does. There's a sensor that tells the head carriage when it has been fully extended (look for the red, brown, and orange wires feeding into it at bottom-right of this photo (https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ahbtey2knvTaV8WAA)), but there's no separate sensor to detect full retraction that I know of.

(My guess is that the head positioning is calibrated by the full-extension sensor, and then the disk drive controller just counts stepper motor "steps" after that. It seems unlikely to me that the stepper motor would still step but that its counting would go off, so I don't think it would be a problem with the computer losing track of where the heads are.)

Maybe it's what's on the media. Would it be possible to try formatting the disk in BLU? Perhaps the Office System is expecting an uninitialised disk to have been "more formatted" than yours is.

PS: Kudos on the precision of your cutout for the near head---it looks very nice!
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 11, 2020, 02:42:24 pm
Okay so I booted from the X/Profile/BLU and tried to format a floppy.

Upper drive: "Floppy drive error 1B" after some trying. When I pressed "F" to fail, I got "Operation Failed Error Code FA20"
Lower drive: still doesn't clamp down.  Got an error 16 on that one.

Is there  list of error codes and what they mean?
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 11, 2020, 05:13:59 pm
While I don't know what FA20 means, the other two codes are described on page 6-37 (PDF page 206) of the Lisa Hardware Manual (https://lisa.sunder.net/LisaHardwareManual1983.pdf).

$16 is "Unable to Clamp", so nothing too newsworthy there.
$1B is "Unable to Adjust Speed".

As you probably know, Twiggy disks spin at different speeds depending on which track is being accessed. I guess this is why your heads refused to retract any further---they were supposed to change speeds once the heads passed a certain point, but they didn't. I don't know too much about how this is controlled, so an error like that for me would be the beginning of a schematics-n-probe adventure, I expect.

Perhaps first check the easy stuff. On your Twiggy drives... are all the connectors plugged in? Are all the chips well-seated in their sockets? Here are a pair of pictures of one of my drives to compare against:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/63moQ338i9PWuFUx6

Speaking of schematics, none of the Twiggy schematics I've seen online match my drives very well. This set (https://lisa.sunder.net/TwiggySchematicsRight.pdf) on Ray's site is the same as the one on Bitsavers, and there are some big differences---for example, page 3 says that an MC3470-E5 read amplifier chip should be present somewhere, but there's nothing like that on my drives.

(I see you're getting some information over on Facebook---I'll tune in there, too and see what they come up with...)
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 11, 2020, 05:50:17 pm
I meant to post my pictures here too.  Here are my boards.  I will double check all of the connections and even test the components.  I can hear at least three distinct speeds when the upper drive tries to read the outer track.  Kinda cool but I don't think it finds the right speed so something.

http://vintagecomputer.ca/twiggy-pics/
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 16, 2020, 01:20:11 pm
Okay, so I remove all chips and connectors and used contact cleaner.  Now I have lower Twiggy drive working.  I was able to make two floppies and wrote Lisa Office System I and II from Bitsavers.  While my upper drive gives 1A (Unable to Find Calibration) errors, it did try to format three tracks when first accessed and then has given this error in BLU since.

I was able to install LOS on an X/Profile but it uses the upper drive for "disk 2" when you start LOS from "disk 1" and you attempt to install LOS on a Profile.  Oddly enough, the upper drive sure looked like it was working and the installation completed with no errors but there are no apps in LOS except for the clipboard and preferences.  Does Lisa Write, etc normally get installed?  Could my upper drive have worked or did it just silently give up copying files from that disk and complete with missing files? 

Trying to boot from the LOS disk 1 in the upper drive gives me an Error 45 (Bus error?) but I did turn off my X/Profile to try to boot from the floppy.  Any experience with this and advise would be appreciated.  I will try cleaning the drive and rechecking the ICs/connections.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 16, 2020, 02:09:47 pm
The Office System tools (LisaWrite, etc) come on separate disks. You can find them here:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/Apple/Lisa/twiggy/

Note that these disks may be serialised to a different Lisa, and while the disk images are probably deserialisable using something like the usual editing procedure for 3.5" diskettes, I'm uncertain whether anyone has tried it.

I've never encountered any mismatch of upper and lower drives on my Lisa. Is it the case that the ROM correctly identifies the upper drive as Drive 1 and the lower drive as Drive 2, while the Office System gets it backward? (In other words: are you sure your cables are installed the right way round?  :D )
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 16, 2020, 02:17:07 pm
Ah sorry, I misunderstood---the installation procedure was just referring to the other disk drive as the "second drive" or something. I think this is normal :)
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 17, 2020, 06:29:24 pm
With both Twiggy's I have one working and have narrowed down the other to having an issue with the bottom board.  If I swap bottom boards, the bad drive is fine.  I'll have to start swapping chips to see where the issues lies now. That is time consuming but needs to be done.  Perhaps I'll start by swapping all chips from the good bottom board to see if that fixes it and then take it from there.  It might also be the axial caps but I usually don't see those type going and they look visibly okay.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 17, 2020, 07:15:30 pm
As a computer scientist I have to recommend doing a binary search among your chips  :D

For your sake I hope that this is the problem, although there are plenty of other things that can go wrong. The good news is that virtually all the ICs on the digital board are commodity parts that are widely available even today.

PS: How difficult was it to remove the drive belt from the spindle? I've never attempted it.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: rayarachelian on May 17, 2020, 07:35:07 pm
It might also be the axial caps but I usually don't see those type going and they look visibly okay.

There are in circuit capacitor testers out there for $50~$60, might be worth using one of those to save more time later on. Hopefully all the chips on the questionable board are socketted. From Tom's photo, at least those are.

PS: How difficult was it to remove the drive belt from the spindle? I've never attempted it.

And an even better question, how would one go about building a new belt? Not that I own any twiggy drives, but that's something that's bound to eventually dry out and fail.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 17, 2020, 08:53:06 pm
As a computer scientist I have to recommend doing a binary search among your chips  :D

Well, swapping all chips on the bottom board swapped the issue so it is definitely one of the chips.  Thankfully, they are all socketed.  That is very good news but now I have to swap chips one-by-one or half at a time to narrow things down. I do not have replacements for most of them and the ones I do I have already tried replacing with no luck.

The problem is that inserting a disk or formatting will cause the head to go to the outer track on the disk and it cannot find the right speed as it tries several before it gives up and displays an error in BLU.  If I write a disk from memory, it starts and the inner track and writes out and it does several tracks until it fails as it travels towards the outer tracks.

PS: How difficult was it to remove the drive belt from the spindle? I've never attempted it.

Actually, it is very easy.  It's very much like a bicycle tire.  You pull up on one side of the belt and turn the center spindle until it comes off.  To put it back on, you put it on the motor side, then put the belt on one side of the center spindle side and start turning the center spindle and it belt eventually evens out and it's on.  The belt is made up of woven fiber rubberized material that is quite strong and will last another 30 years. It has not stretched at all which is a bonus.

Getting closer...
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: blusnowkitty on May 18, 2020, 12:16:27 am
I can't say if it's applicable to your case with Twiggy disks, but my 2/5 had an issue where it would attempt to format a disk but fail to verify until I replaced P6A. Might be worth checking out if you have a spare one of those, unfortunately it's a custom Apple part.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 18, 2020, 08:35:39 am
The problem chip was the MC14015B 4-bit shift register on the bottom board.  Swapping this between drives makes them work/not work depending on which drive the bad chip is in.  I ordered an MC14015BCP so I should do some  final testing when it arrives.

I have a scratchy sounding drive that I tried to grease the rails but still seems scratchy.  I'll have to do my best to clean it while I wait for parts. Stepleton, have you had to clean your drives at all?
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 18, 2020, 03:05:55 pm
I was cleaning the drive a couple of weeks ago, as a matter of fact---you can see where I was asking for tips beforehand here (https://lisalist2.com/index.php/topic,83.0.html).

But I took a minimalist approach inspired by the assembly guide I mention in that post. I decided not to lubricate my drive rails and suspect that they weren't ever lubricated---I could see no sign of any kind of grease on them, and when I dusted them with a tissue there was no residue. I think the "teflon coating" referred to in the assembly document is a permanent coating.

I wound up cleaning the little channel in the casting where the "frog leg" roller goes---seems to me like it may have had a bit of graphite lube on it---and put down a bit of polyolefin grease there. Meanwhile, the manufacturing instructions specify Tri-Flow PTFE lubricant for the stepper motor lead screw, and while I don't have any to hand, I've ordered some and will add a few drops later on.

None of my ministrations so far have changed how my Twiggy drives sound---mildly suggestive of snapping themselves to bits during disk insertion and ejection, the same way they've done for the last 22 years  :D
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 19, 2020, 09:50:21 am
Thanks again stepleton.  This morning I ran out and got some WD-40 Specialist Dirt & Dust Resistant Dry Lube PTFE spray and removed all the lube from the rails that I could as it did not make a difference.  I then took three videos.  One with my "good" Twiggy floppy drive as a reference and two videos of the "bad" Twiggy floppy drive both before and after lubing just the rear screw drive.  I think that did it!

Here are the videos.  Note that he floppy is bad and dies on formatting occasionally.  I can visibly see a track that was damaged but I have been using this continually for testing.  You will also note that my "bad" Twiggy floppy occasionally does work but it dies looking for calibration more often than it working.

The first thing I do is insert the floppy while using Blu.  I then try to format.  On the lubed video the format fails so I use the "disk clean" option to get the head moving.

Good Twiggy sounds:

http://vintagecomputer.ca/goodtwiggysounds/

Bad Twiggy Before lubing:

http://vintagecomputer.ca/badtwiggybeforelubing/

Bad Twiggy After Lubing:

http://vintagecomputer.ca/badtwiggyafterlubing/
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: stepleton on May 19, 2020, 03:25:52 pm
I think my drives sound closer to your "bad" drive  :D

I'm still waiting for my Tri Flow---once it gets here I look forward to seeing if I get similar results.

Were you able to manually turn the lead screw in order to do the lubrication? I couldn't get mine to move, but was not going to try and force it.

Does your "bad" drive always fail at roughly the same spot of the format? I wonder if your drive has the same head pressure issues that mine has.
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 19, 2020, 03:54:38 pm
I think my drives sound closer to your "bad" drive  :D  I'm still waiting for my Tri Flow---once it gets here I look forward to seeing if I get similar results.

Were you able to manually turn the lead screw in order to do the lubrication? I couldn't get mine to move, but was not going to try and force it.

I think that will help.  No, you can't move that screw.  I just sprayed it and the first time it was used after spraying was what you heard in that video.  It sounded terrible before.  During the "disk cleaning" or Option N, it would squeak each time it went back and forth.  Now it is okay.

Does your "bad" drive always fail at roughly the same spot of the format? I wonder if your drive has the same head pressure issues that mine has.

No, it usually fails right in the beginning (95%) or a few tracks in. If I change that bad chip, it works fine with no issues.  As a matter of fact, my oldest Twiggy drive didn't have any foam pads for the extra pressure so I cut them myself and with two-sided tape, I put them into both spots on the upper frog arm (if that is the correct term).  I never tried without to be honest.  I had similar issues with single sided drives that have had the pressure pad missing from the arm above (and/or below in this case) as this adds the extra pressure needed for a good read.  I just replaced the foam out of habit during initial drive checks. Perhaps you might check if your pads are missing?

Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 30, 2020, 04:19:24 pm
After the final IC came, I did some testing with the Lisa and all seems fine.  I have a couple of feet missing so it wobbles when I eject a disk in the video but otherwise it is 100% working and restored.

Here's a link to a quick YouTube video.

https://youtu.be/JlJvw4b7gMg (https://youtu.be/JlJvw4b7gMg)
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: rayarachelian on May 30, 2020, 08:38:32 pm
After the final IC came, I did some testing with the Lisa and all seems fine.  I have a couple of feet missing so it wobbles when I eject a disk in the video but otherwise it is 100% working and restored.

Very nice!
I used these on both the front and the Lisa keyboard: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M8I6YLH/ - the base is the same though the shape is slightly different from actual Lisa rubber feet.

Here's a link to a quick YouTube video.

https://youtu.be/JlJvw4b7gMg (https://youtu.be/JlJvw4b7gMg)

That video's very neat, mind if I steal some frames from it for a Lisa 1 skin for LisaEm?
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: snuci on May 31, 2020, 12:53:55 pm
I used these on both the front and the Lisa keyboard: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M8I6YLH/ - the base is the same though the shape is slightly different from actual Lisa rubber feet.

Thanks Ray.  I'll look into these.

That video's very neat, mind if I steal some frames from it for a Lisa 1 skin for LisaEm?

Thanks.  You can use whatever you like.  I plan on taking some extra pictures.  If there is anything specific you need, let me know.

Santo
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: rayarachelian on May 31, 2020, 09:36:09 pm

That video's very neat, mind if I steal some frames from it for a Lisa 1 skin for LisaEm?

Thanks.  You can use whatever you like.  I plan on taking some extra pictures.  If there is anything specific you need, let me know.

Hi Santo,

Many thanks for agreeing,

Do you have a hires version of that video without the text overlay (I'm guessing yt will compress it down)? I could use the frames where you insert the FileWare media and later it ejects. The angle is perfect as a Lisa 1 skin, assuming I get LisaEm compatible with LOS 1.x that is.

Your hand holding and inserting the media and taking it away in both the upper and lower drives is perfect and will add realism. And I'll happily use any twiggy motor sounds vs the 400k drive ones.

I'd also need the power light turning on and off, I don't recall if that was in the video or not. (It's not enough to fake that by just lighting the power button square, because the glow of the powerlight illuminates the bottom of the Lisa when it's on.)
Title: Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
Post by: blusnowkitty on June 02, 2020, 09:57:06 am
Congrats on the Lisa 1 restore! I hope I can be lucky enough to one day get a Lisa 1; I think it looks better than the 2 and it's just such a unique machine with those dual Twiggies.