LisaList2
General Category => LisaList2 => Topic started by: andrew on February 13, 2023, 03:35:00 pm
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Does the drive inside an M0130 work with a Lisa 2? I'm assuming it does, since it was released alongside the Lisa 2 with the 128K; presumably they all used the same drive. Long story short, my Lisa has lacked an actual floppy drive for far too long... I guess this seems like a stupid question as I type this out but I figure it would be good to check here first before dropping the money on one. :/
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Yep, they're all Sony OA-D34Vs. There's nothing too special about the M0130, the cable just internally terminates to a standard 20-pin header.
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I don't see why it wouldn't. The 128k or 512k floppy drive should be OK, as well as the external 400k. You might reach out to VintageMicros, as he could have some drives hanging around.
Might also be worth looking at an 800k drive with an 800k ROM, or it might work OK with the 400k ROM, I'm not sure. Some other folks here may chime in and have more experience with that.
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Does that 800K rom upgrade only work with certain LOS versions? If so, do incompatible versions only see it as a 400K drive?
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Does that 800K rom upgrade only work with certain LOS versions? If so, do incompatible versions only see it as a 400K drive?
Good question. I'll have to defer to @sigma7 on that one.
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Does that 800K rom upgrade only work with certain LOS versions? If so, do incompatible versions only see it as a 400K drive?
Good question. I'll have to defer to @sigma7 on that one.
Sorry --- I don't know anything about using 800K drives/ROMs with LOS (or the Workshop, or *nix)!
I think the "Universal" 400K/800K I/O board ROM might work with all environments when a 400K drive is attached (which means that if an 800K drive is not compatible, you could swap drives without swapping ROMs). However I don't recall if I've tested that.
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I've tried quite a few different floppy drive configurations over the years and from what I remember, the universal 400K/800K ROM works with all environments regardless of whether you have a 400K or 800K drive installed.
If you have an 800K drive installed in the system and your environment doesn't support double-sided disks, it will just behave like a 400K drive, so it shouldn't ever be necessary to install an actual 400K drive if you don't want to.
I'm not sure if an 800K drive works as a 400K drive with the standard 400K ROM installed, but from what little I now about the floppy interface, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't.
You do need a special driver to get full 800K disk support in LOS, but as I said before, an 800K drive will work just fine without the driver; you'll just only have access to 400K of the disk. I'm not sure if the driver works for all versions of LOS; I think it might only work with LOS 3.
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So, it sounds like I can get away with just getting one of those 800K drive brackets and finding an 800K drive from a donor mac. It's definitely a cheaper solution, and later when I find a ROM I can just swap it out and get full functionality. I think I might even have a couple spare drives in a box somewhere. Can I take an 800K drive from any old mac?
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Can I take an 800K drive from any old mac?
Yep! Any 800K drive should work just fine.
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I can't say I've ever run anything earlier than LOS 3.1 on my my machines. I can say the updated 800k rom works great with LOS 3.1 and UniPlus+.
-J
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I guess the only other question I have is where to actually find an 800K ROM. VintageMicros is out of them or at least isn't listing them anymore. I think I'm probably SOL until I can find someone who wants to sell one.
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Check the files section here!
https://lisalist2.com/index.php/topic,163.0.html
The original rom is UV erasable, so if you're not concerned about scratching off the sticker you can wipe it and flash with the updated code.
-J
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So, XLSSDSM6. Is there a good tutorial for this process somewhere?
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So, XLSSDSM6. Is there a good tutorial for this process somewhere?
You'll need a ROM burner of some kind - I can't recall if these are 2716 or 2732. I have a TopMax II but you might be able to do it with something less expensive. I burned these ROMs for Ray this past summer. I'll look to see if I have any spares.
FWIW - If you have a FloppyEmu, you can connect it in place of the 400k drive and mount 400k and 800k disk images without a ROM change. At least, that's been true for me on my 2/5s and 2/10.
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I have a TL866A "MiniPro" programmer, which I've been very happy with. To wipe the roms, I normally use a keyboard UV sterilizing lamp.
-J
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And I use a Willem Programmer because I have no shortage of PCs with real parallel ports. I think just about any programmer made in the last 40 years should be able to program a 2716/2732; they only made a few trillion of those chips...
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My understanding is that there is one subtle difference between the Lisa 400K drive and the Mac 400K drive. That is the behavior on system reset (IIRC) when the Lisa drive will eject any disk in the drive and the Mac 400K drive won't. I'm trying to remember where I found that information...
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A couple questions:
Instead of wiping the working ROM that I have (because I've never actually done this before), can I buy and flash a blank chip instead? If so, is there a part number I can google for the ROM chip?
Also, I picked up an 800K drive cage but there isn't enough clearance between it and my vertically mounted X-Profile. Is there a supported way to install it horizontally like the original widget drive? I don't think the LED will be aligned properly, but I'm not terribly concerned about that.
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A couple questions:
Instead of wiping the working ROM that I have (because I've never actually done this before), can I buy and flash a blank chip instead? If so, is there a part number I can google for the ROM chip?
It'll either be a 2716 or a 2732, I don't remember which but peel up the label and it should tell you. the 27Cxx variants should also be fine.
To wipe a EEPROM, you'll need to grab an eraser box, which is just a UV-C lamp in a sealed box and these can still be had for very cheap. Peel up the label, clean up adhesive residue with isopropyl, and set it in the box for 30-45 minutes, and the ROM is blank. I don't think anyone makes brand new 27xx chips anymore so you'll be buying used or NOS parts. Even in the case of NOS parts, I'd still wipe the chips first just in case cosmic radiation or something flipped a bit in the chip. Even one bit that isn't erased is enough to cause a ROM programming to fail.
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I picked up an 800K drive cage but there isn't enough clearance between it and my vertically mounted X-Profile. Is there a supported way to install it horizontally like the original widget drive?
AFAIK, the X/ProFile fits above all of the various 3.5" floppy drive mounting configurations that were available for the Lisa. The top edge of the X/ProFile should be aligned with the top edge of the removable drive cage.
If the floppy won't fit under it then double check your drive mount to see if the floppy will actually align with the front panel slot.
If the problem persists, a picture may be the best way to describe the issue.
There is no problem mounting it horizontally if you prefer... perhaps someone has done that and can share a picture?
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I had the X-Profile mounted correctly, screwed into the three holes on the right side of the drive cage and secured with two plastic mounting clips on top. The LED was perfectly aligned. In that configuration there wasn't enough room to position the 800K drive bracket I got from vintagemicros onto the holes at the bottom of the drive cage.
I was able to install the X-Profile horizontally onto a widget drive bracket - or whatever the exact name is for the piece of metal the widget drive rests on top of. For one corner I used one of the metal spacers and for the other three I placed mounting clips onto the bracket - haphazard but fine until I come up with something more elegant. Are those mounting clips made specifically for the X-Profile or are they a part I can find separately?
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I had the X-Profile mounted correctly ... there wasn't enough room to position the 800K drive bracket I got from vintagemicros onto the holes at the bottom of the drive cage.
Is this exactly the bracket? http://vintagemicros.com/catalog/lisa-800k-drive-bracket-p-116.html (http://vintagemicros.com/catalog/lisa-800k-drive-bracket-p-116.html)
If not, please send me a picture of the bracket at your convenience.
If it is... it is news to me that there is a bracket that interferes... I presume your bracket has excess empty space above the drive? If not, can you describe the source of the interference?
I was able to install the X-Profile horizontally onto a widget drive bracket ... Are those mounting clips made specifically for the X-Profile or are they a part I can find separately?
The clips are off-the-shelf ... Richco/Essentra LCBSB-10-01A-RT
eg. https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/essentra-components/LCBSB-10-01A-RT/392172 (https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/essentra-components/LCBSB-10-01A-RT/392172)
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Yes, that is the bracket. Unless the corresponding ebay listing (https://www.ebay.com/itm/203949201150) is somehow not the same thing. When I get some time, I'll try remounting the X-Profile vertically again - I could have been doing something incorrectly. :/ I'll post an image if I have additional trouble.
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When I get some time, I'll try remounting the X-Profile vertically again ...
If the LED was well aligned with the clear lens in the front panel, then I expect it was in the right place. Regardless, any info that could help in the future is appreciated.
Thanks for working through the issue!
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Here's a google drive link with some photographs I took: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1GIG7q9eM-uF3F4zQdgfND0NDxku6G7Ei?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1GIG7q9eM-uF3F4zQdgfND0NDxku6G7Ei?usp=sharing)
The first photo is what I used to horizontally mount the X/Profile. It's not very elegant, but I wanted at least one corner to be screwed in since I hate removing those clips.
Today, I remounted the drive vertically - the second photo is the LED active on the front panel. The next few photos show the positioning of the mounted X/Profile. Finally, I have some photos of the 800K bracket inside the cage. There's a slight sliver of overlap preventing me from pushing the bracket all the way to the right. At first, I thought the screws themselves might be getting in the way, so I removed the front two screws and pushed the drive a tiny bit further to the right, as seen in the last two photos.
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I remounted the drive vertically ... I have some photos of the 800K bracket inside the cage. There's a slight sliver of overlap preventing me from pushing the bracket all the way to the right.
Clearly it won't fit... it seems that bracket was made taller than necessary leaving extra room above the drive inside compared to other brackets.
I assume/hope the bracket positions the floppy drive in the correct place at least.
I can't think of a simple solution to the fit (anyone else?), so choices seem limited to another mounting place or modifying (or replacing... I don't think they are all that way) the bracket. A 3d printed bracket is an option.
I agree the clips are a pain/nuisance. Maybe there is a better choice now for something that doesn't require permanent modification to the Lisa, but I'm not aware of it. It is possible to cut off the spring portion (see pic) and thread an 8-32 or M4 nut onto the remaining post, but that is probably even more effort to undo.
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So, I thought I'd post my final setup here, as seen in the attached image. Everything fits in very nicely, and I even found a little solution for positioning a plugged-in LED. I took one of the spare clips I had ordered and bent the LED wires around it so it sits at just the right spot to be visible when the front panel is closed.
Also, funny enough, the spare 800K drive I had lying around doesn't actually work properly, so I'll have sort that out soon! In the meantime, it just feels good to have something in the drive slot area! The only other things I need to do are to find an actual bracket-like piece to mount the A/B switch onto and to get a clip of some kind to clean up the ribbon cables.