LisaList2
General Category => LisaList2 => Topic started by: fri0701 on August 31, 2022, 11:19:09 pm
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I've seen plenty of disk images online for Lisa Office System and its related application suite in English, but despite the many mentions of plenty of international versions, I've only seen a couple screenshots. Does anyone have any disk images of the international versions of these disks they can share? (Twiggy images would be especially interesting, but 3.5" would be great to archive as well)
From Wikipedia:
"Within a few months of the Lisa's introduction in the US, fully translated versions of the software and documentation were commercially available for the British, French, West German, Italian, and Spanish markets, followed by several Scandinavian versions shortly thereafter."
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I've been gently encouraging someone on 68kmla (https://68kmla.org/bb/index.php?threads/lisa-os.41934/) to image a friend's Office System 2.0F (French) diskettes.
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I'll note it here when I find some of these versions:
It looks like Apple Asimov has a copy of Lisa Office System/Buerosystem* 2.0 and tools (on 400k disks): https://www.apple.asimov.net/images/applelisa/Apple%20Lisa%20Software%20-%20Disk%20Images_vol_3.zip
However, they aren't working with LisaEm - the install disks crash the emulator with a pretty deep and esoteric error message:
"Emulation aborted!
We've encountered a problem!
Doh odd PC value (ffffffff) on vector (3) fetch in reg68k_internal_vector - BYE BYE
Stopped at reg68k.c:reg68k_internal_vector:2377 with code :58
LisaEM will now quit."
...and while the tool disks load under LOS 3.x, they complain about the tools being damaged when you try to run them. It's possible this is because I'm not using LOS 2.0, so I'll have to try that later when I find good install disks for it.
On a side note, Ray's los-deserialize utility has come in handy here for sure. The install/tool disks ended up being serialized against 4 different Lisa AppleNet numbers! (Install #1: 00102900, Install #2: 00103344, Install #3-4: 00102603, tools: 00103061)
*a database error is thrown when posting if your post contains an umlaut.
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I'll note it here when I find some of these versions:
It looks like Apple Asimov has a copy of Lisa Office System/Buerosystem* 2.0 and tools (on 400k disks): https://www.apple.asimov.net/images/applelisa/Apple%20Lisa%20Software%20-%20Disk%20Images_vol_3.zip
However, they aren't working with LisaEm - the install disks crash the emulator with a pretty deep and esoteric error message:
"Emulation aborted!
We've encountered a problem!
Doh odd PC value (ffffffff) on vector (3) fetch in reg68k_internal_vector - BYE BYE
Stopped at reg68k.c:reg68k_internal_vector:2377 with code :58
LisaEM will now quit."
It's likely that the OS disk is damaged. I haven't played with installing LOS 2.0 in a while but I recall the US version working. So that error indicates that the vector for the Address Error exception was set to ffffffff - this is an invalid address which itself will cause an address error exception on top of the first exception. So effectively this is a double address error exception, in this case there's nothing to do but reset the CPU.
When exactly does this happen during the install? Is it all the way at the end when you say restart off hard drive?
If not, I'm guessing there's some bad blocks/errors on those disks. This might be an opportunity to repair it by extracting all the files from the broken disk and compare them, except for the phrases files, to known good ones from the US version.
I've seen this kind of thing being used for a reboot, but it was done differently than this. I don't believe Apple would have different code for different languages, but rather they'd have just changed the phrases files for LOS and its apps. It is possible, but unlikely.
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I have the German version of LOS 2.0. We have created image files of real disks obtained by Stefan of http://homecomputer.de/ (http://homecomputer.de/) in the '90s. I thought we have uploaded them somewhere (or sent them to DTC?), but I am not sure. Perhaps the stuff on asimov is a preliminary version.
I can put my (working) version in the files section.
IIRC for LOS3 I have only the US version.
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Can confirm that Office System 2.0 (US) works in LisaEm.
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It's likely that the OS disk is damaged. I haven't played with installing LOS 2.0 in a while but I recall the US version working. So that error indicates that the vector for the Address Error exception was set to ffffffff - this is an invalid address which itself will cause an address error exception on top of the first exception. So effectively this is a double address error exception, in this case there's nothing to do but reset the CPU.
When exactly does this happen during the install? Is it all the way at the end when you say restart off hard drive?
The error happens after I insert the disk, tell the Lisa to boot from floppy, and it grinds away at the disk for a bit while the hourglass icon is on the screen (so in other words, it doesn't get very far). Like you said, probably just a corrupted disk.
I have the German version of LOS 2.0. We have created image files of real disks obtained by Stefan of http://homecomputer.de/ (http://homecomputer.de/) in the '90s. I thought we have uploaded them somewhere (or sent them to DTC?), but I am not sure. Perhaps the stuff on asimov is a preliminary version.
I can put my (working) version in the files section.
That would be fantastic, thank you! It would be interesting to compare your images with the ones I have to see what the differences are, assuming the disks are relatively original and haven't been messed around with much before imaging.
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When exactly does this happen during the install? Is it all the way at the end when you say restart off hard drive?
The error happens after I insert the disk, tell the Lisa to boot from floppy, and it grinds away at the disk for a bit while the hourglass icon is on the screen (so in other words, it doesn't get very far). Like you said, probably just a corrupted disk.
So this is a very subtle thing, but if you look at LOS booting very carefully, there are several phases. The very first one is that you'll see a small square appear in the lower left side of the screen, it's gray, like the desktop, but the bits are inverted. This happens right after the boot loader is done.
After this, the boot loader will then load the kernel. Well actually it will load something like system_profile.bt or system_sony.bt on a floppy, then after the kernel is up, it will also load some drivers and look at a system config file which will tell it what the desktop application to run is (vs, say, the LPW menu.)
Once the kernel is loaded you'll see the mouse cursor change to an hour glass I think, before it puts up the "Wait" banner (or warns that the disk wasn't unmounted properly and prompts you to run the salvage program.)
I'd first try this with a working LOS 2.0 or 3.1 or whatever so you can notice the stages yourself, and then retry it with that broken one and see where it dies.
Assuming you're NOT on Windows, if you recompile LisaEm yourself with --debug and --tracelog, it will also let you set the Throttle much lower, say to 1MHz.
Newer LisaEms also have a switch on the build command --with-trace-on-start which will enable the tracelog as soon as power is applied. (For older versions, you can change a #define inside of vars.h to do the same thing.)
Or you could, move the mouse over to the floppy icon in the boot menu, and right before you click on that floppy icon (apple 2) to boot from it, hit right click on the mouse, which will turn on the tracelog. Note that the tracelog will generate gigs and gigs of logs, however it will also slow down LisaEm to something like 500Khz. So you can use these mechanisms to slow things down and see where this disk goes bad.
Looking at the tracelog, you can also fish out what sector was last read from the floppy, and then use lisafsh-tool to figure out what file it was reading from, if it had the fileid tags (4,5)=bb bb, it was in the boot loader. (Sadly, I don't yet have code to get filenames from LOS 2.0 in lisafsh-tool, but I will eventually, but this would also be a way to go.)
If it's the boot loader that's broken, you're in luck as I have a tool that can be used to replace it: https://github.com/rayarachelian/lisaem/blob/master/src/tools/src/dc42-copy-boot-loader.c - you could then use the USA LOS 2.0 version as the source of the boot loader and a copy of the broken LOS as the target and that will fix it. If it's some other file, you'd need to do a lot of manual work in lisafsh-tool to repair whatever was broken once it's narrowed down.
The tracelog itself will contain everything that LisaEm did all the way up to the crash, likely it will leave you in gdb/lldb when LisaEm quits, so you might see more info that way too.
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Not sure if this is the droid we're looking for, but: https://lisalist2.com/index.php/topic,319.0.html
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Yes, these are our image files. However, it is possible that I fixed some of them at a later time (around 2004, when the IDEfile project started). Later on I will also upload my known good versions here.
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Great! Thank you!
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Yes, these are our image files. However, it is possible that I fixed some of them at a later time (around 2004, when the IDEfile project started). Later on I will also upload my known good versions here.
I *think* these are the same files that I found (and have been testing with) on Asimov - at least the directory structure looks the same. No luck yet with any repairs, unfortunately, but I look forward to trying out the known good images!
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Using an older version of LisaEm, I was able to successfully install LOS and all of the applications from these disks! I posted a ProFile image usable in LisaEm in the Files board.
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Yup confirmed, LisaEm RC4 breaks LOS 2.x installs, installer says can't write to ProFile, contact your service person, etc. Not sure what exactly I broke and when, but looking. Not sure about RC3a, but that might also be suspect.
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When searching online earlier, I found Lisa Office System 3.1 and (partial) Lisa Office System 3.0 in Italian on a different forum, posted earlier this year. I've deserialized the disks (and in the case of 3.1, made a bootable ProFile disk image that can be used in LisaEm), and uploaded them in the Files section.
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Was anyone aware that the Lisa ROM itself had international translations, too? I found this Lisa on eBay Kleinanzeigen (German Craigslist/FB Marketplace?) and guess what? The ROM is in German! (Also notice that curious little toggle switch, I bet that's a video mod switch.)
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/apple-lisa-2/1792715326-228-6542
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So far as I know, there was only one ROM, but the ROM has French and German strings in addition to English. You can find them in the source code (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/firmware/Lisa_Boot_ROM_Asm_Listing.TEXT): search for the string "GETESTET" for example.
If you scroll to $364E in the code, you can see that the ROM determines the language of your keyboard and chooses which messages to show on that basis. If you have a US or UK keyboard, you get English. If you have a German or a French keyboard you get German and French messages respectively. If you have any other kind of keyboard, the ROM will show you all three languages at once in hopes that you can understand at least one of them!
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ROM language depends on the keyboard connected. With a German keyboard, the ROM messages are in German, with a French keyboard in French etc. If you open your keyboard, you'll find a DIP switch, or at least the place to fit one. Here you can set the keyboard layout / language.
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Thanks to some fellow Lisa collectors, we were able to piece together complete sets of LOS 2.0F (French) and 3.1F (French). I've uploaded these in the Files section under two separate posts.
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With much help from Tim Colegrove and his Lisa 1, we were able to archive the OS disks for LOS 1.1B (British English)! I've made a more detailed post in the Files section, if you're curious.
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Hi all,
thanks for your conservation efforts and sorry for the thread necromancy. I've installed the German LOS v2 from the Files section on my Lisa and found the differences between LOS 2 and 3 quite substantial. For example, there's no Apple+E to eject floppies on desktop, and you have to explicitly select the floppy to be able to eject - how were people living on LOS 2? :P
Does anyone have any leads or suggestions where to go hunting for a German LOS 3 suite?
Cheers
mikerofone
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Does anyone have any leads or suggestions where to go hunting for a German LOS 3 suite?
Copies sometimes show up on German eBay, often as part of a larger set or complete system. The only one I know of now is this sale, which shows a handwritten "3.1D" label on a LisaProject disk: https://www.ebay.de/itm/266105790910