LisaList2

General Category => LisaList2 => Topic started by: bmwcyclist on February 17, 2025, 08:36:38 pm

Title: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: bmwcyclist on February 17, 2025, 08:36:38 pm
Has anyone found a way to get a Lisa to use ethernet/TCP-IP on the internet? I found a video where VNC Remote was used, but no config guidance.

I hope to get a Lisa 2/10 with a 16MHz XLerator Board With SCSI Support

Thanks!

P.S. Great forum this is my first post. Lots of great info here.
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: ried on February 18, 2025, 12:23:15 am
You can absolutely get a Lisa on the Internet. Well... a Macintosh XL, at least.

(https://i.imgur.com/itOb4jg.jpeg)

You are correct that having SCSI via an XLerator is the key. Once the required hardware is installed, Macintosh System 7 through 7.5.5 will become available to you. MacTCP will enable you to use a SCSI Ethernet adapter (DaynaPORT, Asante, etc). There are even fancy new ZuluSCSI Mini units that have Wi-Fi and emulate the DaynaPORT SCSI Ethernet units, which is how the one shown above is online.

A Lisa on the Internet thanks to Wi-Fi. Who would have thought?  8)
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: stepleton on February 18, 2025, 03:51:47 am
If you can't find a SCSI card, I expect you ought to be able to do PPP over a serial port. It'll be slow but so will be the rest of the Lisa anyway. You'll need a null modem cable connected to a serial port-equipped, Internet-connected computer at the other end --- or you could see about subscribing to a good old-fashioned dial-up ISP if you can find one!
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: bmwcyclist on February 18, 2025, 10:38:23 am
You can absolutely get a Lisa on the Internet. Well... a Macintosh XL, at least.

You are correct that having SCSI via an XLerator is the key. Once the required hardware is installed, Macintosh System 7 through 7.5.5 will become available to you. MacTCP will enable you to use a SCSI Ethernet adapter (DaynaPORT, Asante, etc). There are even fancy new ZuluSCSI Mini units that have Wi-Fi and emulate the DaynaPORT SCSI Ethernet units, which is how the one shown above is online.

A Lisa on the Internet thanks to Wi-Fi. Who would have thought?  8)

Thanks!

Can you be more specific? I have purchased a SCSI XLerator, do I need ANOTHER SCSI card or just SCSI to Ethernet/Wifi?  I am assuming I can attach the ZuluSCSI to the XLerator SCSI port, but I hate to assume... ;)

Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: bmwcyclist on February 18, 2025, 10:44:07 am
Is this correct?

https://shop.rabbtholecomputing.com/products/zuluscsi-rp2040-pico-slim

Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: Lisa2 on February 18, 2025, 10:51:32 am
I have had my Lisa online since 1999.   Over the years I have tried all the possibilities to connect.  My preferred method is to use MacIP over Localtalk.  I have the SCSI to Ethernet adapters ( even the new SCSI wifi clones), but they are not any better or much faster than using the Localtalk port that is built into the Lisa.   I use a Gatorbox, but there are many other options available today to setup a MacIP gateway.

Rick
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: Lisa2 on February 18, 2025, 10:53:41 am
https://shop.rabbitholecomputing.com/products/zuluscsi-rp2040-pico-slim

Don't buy the Zulu SCSI!

Buy a blueSCSI:

https://bluescsi.com/

https://bluescsi.com/docs/WiFi-DaynaPORT
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: bmwcyclist on February 18, 2025, 12:58:55 pm
Thanks!
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: sigma7 on February 18, 2025, 04:24:14 pm
I have purchased a SCSI XLerator, do I need ANOTHER SCSI card or just SCSI to Ethernet/Wifi?

You don't need a SCSI expansion card if your XLerator has SCSI installed.

If you were to install a SCSI expansion card as well, you can use only one or the other SCSI port. One uses the XLerator control panel to turn on/off the XLerator SCSI port (if it is off and a SCSI expansion card is installed, then that card's port is used).

Note that SCSI support was introduced in MacWorks Plus 1.0.something and is in MW+II. SCSI isn't supported in LOS, Workshop, Xenix, MacWorks XL as there are (currently) no drivers.
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: bmwcyclist on February 18, 2025, 08:37:57 pm
extremely helpful, thank you!
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: compu_85 on February 18, 2025, 11:34:59 pm
I've tried getting a stock lisa online with MacTCP... it just can't cut it. With an XLerator things work fine.
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: Lisa2 on February 19, 2025, 02:49:03 pm
It's a lot more than just the XLerator that makes this work.   Running MW+II and System 7 is the real trick here.  Even if you get a PPP connection or MacIP  going under MW+, system 6.03 is the real limitation  System 6.03 pre-dates the Internet, and as such there are no applications that support MacTCP that will work under 6.03.  You will need 6.07 or later for a TCP/IP connection to be of any use...

Rick
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: D.Finni on February 19, 2025, 03:46:35 pm
bmwcyclist: try using NCSA Telnet, which includes FTP too. It existed in 1988-89, which is the era of System 6.0.3.
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: jamesdenton on February 20, 2025, 09:18:18 am
bmwcyclist: try using NCSA Telnet, which includes FTP too. It existed in 1988-89, which is the era of System 6.0.3.

I believe there was a version that had a short-lived PPP or SLIP implementation, though I can't recall the details
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: Lisa2 on February 20, 2025, 05:23:05 pm
I have never seen a version of NCSA Telnet that had a PPP or SLIP implementation built in.  Every version I ever came in contact with used MacTCP.

DogCow, what ever happened to the internet tools you were developing for early Macintoshes that we were testing for Lisa compatibility?   Do you have this special version of NCSA Telnet in your download vault on the MacGui site?

Rick
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: D.Finni on February 21, 2025, 03:39:20 pm
I have never seen a version of NCSA Telnet that had a PPP or SLIP implementation built in.  Every version I ever came in contact with used MacTCP.
Yes, there was an earlier NCSA version that pre-dated MacTCP. I think it used an AppleTalk to IP bridge or gateway.

Quote
DogCow, what ever happened to the internet tools you were developing for early Macintoshes that we were testing for Lisa compatibility?   Do you have this special version of NCSA Telnet in your download vault on the MacGui site?
That project stalled for lack of available time to work on it. It's not dead, and I do want to complete it, I just don't know when. We spent a lot of time on that, and I hope to pick it back up some time.

I'm not sure if I have that special NCSA Telnet application in the Vault. I remember looking for it a few years back, but I don't recall if I found it or not.
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: sigma7 on February 21, 2025, 04:18:34 pm
there was a version that had a short-lived PPP or SLIP implementation

This NCSA Telnet for the Macintosh User’s Guide Version 2.6 (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/dward/classes/skills/telnet/MacTelnet.pdf) says:

Quote
These other Version 2.5 features are no longer available in Version 2.6:
• • •
Serial Connections
SLIP Connections via built-in drivers
NCSA TCP/IP drivers

So finding source/binary for an earlier version might be worth a moment...

#5 of this purports to have 2.3 and 2.4:

https://www.macintoshrepository.org/83-ncsa-telnet-2-x (https://www.macintoshrepository.org/83-ncsa-telnet-2-x)
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: jamesdenton on February 21, 2025, 05:06:47 pm
I've got a copy attached. Just opened it up and SLIP is there (under new connections). I haven't tried it in a long time and have forgotten the process.

@DFinni - Would be great if you're able to host it on MacGUI
Title: Re: Lisa and TCP/IP - Ethernet or ??
Post by: D.Finni on February 24, 2025, 08:38:01 am
Thanks for providing that version of NCSA Telnet with combined TCP/IP drivers. That's just what we were looking for.

Quote
IMPORTANT  NOTES- June 1992                       NCSA/BYU Telnet 2.5

There are some substantial changes with this release of Telnet.  While all of these changes are described fully in the documentation, they are worthy of another mention here.  If you do not already have the Telnet 2.5 documentation, please get it from
anonymous ftp from: ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu


NCSA/MacTCP drivers
NCSA Telnet previously came in two versions: NCSA driver version, and MacTCP driver version. However, in this release of Telnet, the two versions have been merged into one application. This allows greater flexibility, along with removing the need to have two different applications for basically the same program. You may select the NCSA drivers, by appropriately setting the hardware= line in config.tel to ether, or atalk.

To select the MacTCP drivers, you may  set hardware=mactcp in the config.tel file. Also, since Telnet defaults to MacTCP, if there is no hardware=mactcp line, Telnet will still assume that MacTCP is to be used.


Serial Connections
Telnet now has the ability to connect through the serial port, and can also optionally use SLIP. For more information about this, please see the documentation.