LisaList2
General Category => LisaList2 => Lisa Troubleshooting and Repair => Topic started by: bmwcyclist on June 06, 2025, 11:14:31 am
-
Hello everyone!
I just recieved a new Sun Remarketing Lisa SCSI card from Vintage Micros.
The card looks great but it is giving me a Card Error 92 on bootup.
I tried to bypass the error and boot to my XLerator 16 SCSI (with BlueSCSI) but it would not boot.
I am choosing option 4 (fast ram, Sun SCSI) or option 1 (fast mode only)
I have tried it with and without a known good BlueSCSI module.
Any suggestions or help would be appreciated. Thanks!
-
Try using the slot that is covered. That is where my SCSi card is seated.
Good luck. I enjoy all your posts.
-
Are you trying to directly boot the Lisa from the SCSI card? or using a MW boot floppy and then booting from the SCSI drive?
FYI, unlike a par port drive, Lisa can't directly boot from a SCSI drive without a QuickBoot ROM on the Sun card, or a LSAC card for the Xlerator SCSI port.
-
Try using the slot that is covered. That is where my SCSi card is seated.
Good luck. I enjoy all your posts.
Will do. Thank you !
-
Are you trying to directly boot the Lisa from the SCSI card? or using a MW boot floppy and then booting from the SCSI drive?
FYI, unlike a par port drive, Lisa can't directly boot from a SCSI drive without a QuickBoot ROM on the Sun card, or a LSAC card for the Xlerator SCSI port.
I am booting from an ESPROFILE into Mac Works +2.
-
Any suggestions or help would be appreciated
1) edit: It appears I was incorrect and the labelling for this particular brand/part is indeed 220/330 for the 220 + 330 ohm variety of the network.
I think the terminator arrays (R2 & R3) may not be the correct part. They should be 220 ohm/330 ohm terminator networks, which are typically labelled as 221/331 since the last digit is a 10's multiplier. The pictured parts' 220/330 suggests to me they are 22 & 33 ohms. You could double-check with an ohmmeter by measuring resistance from pin 1 to pin 7 and pin 1 to pin 14.
For a short SCSI bus with one host and one device, often one needs only one set of terminators. For a longer bus or multiple devices, two sets are used/needed (one set at each end of the chain). Since your bus is very short, you can try removing the terminators from the SCSI card and just use/enable the ones on the BlueSCSI.
2) However, I think error 92 indicates the CPU ROM thought it found an expansion card ROM with code to be checksummed, which is not correct for the stock SR EPROM (it should be all 00s except for an ID byte). If you can dump the ROM with BLU or an EPROM burner or even just look at it with service mode, that may reveal an issue. If the ROM doesn't have the expected ID byte then MW+/II won't recognize it as a SCSI card, possibly matching the symptoms you describe. I believe the BlueSCSI light will flash when the host attempts to access it, so if you don't see any flash when booting MW+/II then it suggests the SCSI port wasn't recognized (and/or it could be the terminator problem above).
3) The XLerator SCSI should work regardless of the SCSI card. If you remove the SCSI card and plug the BlueSCSI into the XLerator SCSI port, MW+/II should be able to access it once booted (from the Parallel drive or a floppy). Again the BlueSCSI's terminators should be enabled as the XLerator does not have terminators.
4) In the picture, I see the mounting bracket for the XLerator SCSI is the early galvanized type. When mounted to the back panel, the galvanizing on the bracket was found to cause problems with some drives, so the brackets were replaced with stainless steel ones. A work-around for this potential problem is to leave the bracket unattached (ie. insulated) from the back panel so the galvanized bracket is not grounded.
-
Wow fabulous reply. Thank you.!
-
1) I think the terminator arrays (R2 & R3) may not be the correct part.
Photos attached. They seem to match my passive terminator.
2) However, I think error 92 indicates the CPU ROM thought it found an expansion card ROM with code to be checksummed, which is not correct for the stock SR EPROM (it should be all 00s except for an ID byte).
Well crap. I don't have an EEProm burner. If it is bad is the ROM code posted somewhere? I have a couple of friends with burners.
3) The XLerator SCSI should work regardless of the SCSI card.
I agree. It works fine without the card in.
4) In the picture, I see the mounting bracket for the XLerator SCSI is the early galvanized type. When mounted to the back panel, the galvanizing on the bracket was found to cause problems with some drives, so the brackets were replaced with stainless steel ones. A work-around for this potential problem is to leave the bracket unattached (ie. insulated) from the back panel so the galvanized bracket is not grounded.
WOW, good to know. I will see if I can stop it from grounding.
-
Try using the slot that is covered. That is where my SCSi card is seated.
Good luck. I enjoy all your posts.
Thanks for the suggestion, I tried it in the other slot and no help this time. I will (assuming I get it fixed) continue to use this slot for all future use.
-
If the ROM doesn't have the expected ID byte then MW+/II won't recognize it as a SCSI card, possibly matching the symptoms you describe. I believe the BlueSCSI light will flash when the host attempts to access it, so if you don't see any flash when booting MW+/II then it suggests the SCSI port wasn't recognized (and/or it could be the terminator problem above).
4) In the picture, I see the mounting bracket for the XLerator SCSI is the early galvanized type. When mounted to the back panel, the galvanizing on the bracket was found to cause problems with some drives, so the brackets were replaced with stainless steel ones. A work-around for this potential problem is to leave the bracket unattached (ie. insulated) from the back panel so the galvanized bracket is not grounded.
no blinky blinky on the BlueSCSI when using the Sun SCSI card.
ADHOC I have isolated the back plate with scotch tape until an upgrade can be acquired. (don't tell anyone, it looks embarrassing.. ;) )
-
I use internal hookup for my scsi board no problems but I’am
using a mechanical scsi hard drive. Never got the BlueSCSI to work
on external port.
-
Interesting!
I don't know if I still have a SCSI drive around....
-
Sorry I wasn't clear... I meant pin 1 to pin 7 and pin 1 to pin 14 on the terminator part itself, but I think measuring 1 to 14 on the DB25 and comparing to a terminator is satisfactory to show the terminator is the correct part.
Even so, I would try removing the terminators, or disable the BlueSCSI terminators so there is only one set in use.
The SCSI expansion card does work in all 3 slots normally.
You can examine the expansion card ROM from service mode.
Once in service mode, type one of the following lines according to which slot the card is in:
The first "1" selects "Display memory" so it won't be shown on the screen. The second <return> is a null entry to the "Count?" query, which defaults to 0x10 bytes.
Slot 1
1FC0000<return><return>
Slot 2
1FC4000<return><return>
Slot 3
1FC8000<return><return>
Like almost all Lisa expansion cards, the SCSI expansion card ROM is 8 bits wide, so only half of each word displayed is coming from the ROM. That's the low byte (the right two characters of each word displayed).
The ID byte of the SCSI ROM is at offset 1 in the ROM, and should be 0x1B in this case. The rest of the ROM is zeros.
eg. if in slot 2, I would expect you to see
00FC4000 xx00 xx1B xx00 xx00 xx00 etc.
where xx is data not coming from the ROM (it might be random or coming from some other hardware on the card), so can be ignored in this case.
For completeness: if you had a QuickBoot ROM installed on the SCSI card instead of the SunRemarketing SCSI ROM, you'd see
00FC4000 xxE0 xx1B xx01 xx01 xx60 etc.
-
Never got the BlueSCSI to work on external port.
I have used the 25 pin BlueSCSI on the SR SCSI card successfully; feel free to start a new thread if you'd like some help troubleshooting.
-
You can examine the expansion card ROM from service mode.
For completeness: if you had a QuickBoot ROM installed on the SCSI card instead of the SunRemarketing SCSI ROM, you'd see
00FC4000 xxE0 xx1B xx01 xx01 xx60 etc.
You are a national treasure! Thank you!
So... What are the ramifications of installing a QuickBoot ROM and are they available?
.
-
Even so, I would try removing the terminators, or disable the BlueSCSI terminators so there is only one set in use.
You can examine the expansion card ROM from service mode.
Terminators removed.
Slot 1 Test 1, BlueSCSI plugged in but no external power
007F BBFF 007F.... etc.
Slot 1 Test 2, BlueSCSI plugged in with power on.
007F EF7F 007F.... ect.
-
Slot 1 Test 1, BlueSCSI plugged in but no external power
When the Lisa CPU is reading an expansion card's ROM, in most (and perhaps all) cases, external devices attached to the expansion card are not involved (so it shouldn't matter if there is a BlueSCSI attached, or a parallel drive/printer attached to a dual parallel card, etc.)
007F BBFF 007F.... etc.
...
007F EF7F 007F.... ect.
... that indicates a problem... the SCSI card ROM shouldn't be reading as 7F FF 7F, nor as 7F 7F 7F.
And perhaps it indicates two problems, since a blank ROM would be FF FF FF and if everything else is ok, the ROM data should be repeatable.
The problem with the high bit may be due to a poor contact at the edge connector... sliding the card up and down slightly after installation can help "wipe" the contacts and improve the connection.
If the high bit is still unreliable, try the other slots to see if it is slot dependent.
If you have another 2716 EPROM (from eg. a Dual Parallel card) with known contents, I suggest you install that in the SCSI card to see if service mode can read that ROM properly.
-
... that indicates a problem... the SCSI card ROM shouldn't be reading as 7F FF 7F, nor as 7F 7F 7F.
And perhaps it indicates two problems, since a blank ROM would be FF FF FF and if everything else is ok, the ROM data should be repeatable.
The problem with the high bit may be due to a poor contact at the edge connector... sliding the card up and down slightly after installation can help "wipe" the contacts and improve the connection.
If the high bit is still unreliable, try the other slots to see if it is slot dependent.
If you have another 2716 EPROM (from eg. a Dual Parallel card) with known contents, I suggest you install that in the SCSI card to see if service mode can read that ROM properly.
Ok. so cleaned all of the slots with DeoxIT and the card. All look bright and clean.
Insterted card BROKE plastic clip and I was not strong-arming it. Does anyone have a 3D print file for these?
Ran test 3 times, results in attached photos.
Still not happy about booting with the card installed.
-
Ran test 3 times, results in attached photos.
Try the other slots to see if there is any difference (maybe you already did, but I think the pics show slot 2 only). The problem may be the card or it may be the slot.
edit: earlier on you had tried slot 1, so try slot 3 if you haven't yet. And/or if you have another expansion card (eg. Dual Parallel) that would be useful to check the slots are in working order.
Trying a known good EPROM (from some other device) in the SCSI card will also be helpful to determine if it is the card or the EPROM that is the issue.
After all these years, the yellow cams on the ZIF sockets do break pretty easily. If you are extremely careful to slide and hold the card all the way in before closing the ZIF you can minimize the chance of breaking a cam.
As mentioned later-on in the thread "Sun Remarketing SCSI card: A cautionary tale (https://lisalist2.com/index.php/topic,573.msg4071.html#msg4071)", I've been experimenting with 3D printed replacement cams. I had posted there about trying GF Nylon SLS -- I've concluded it wasn't the right material to use, so ordered and have received the Aluminum SLS variety, which I think will be the winner, more to come.
-
I have tried all of the slots, no good.
I do not have a ROM chip or other Lisa cards.
Any sources to recommend?
-
Any sources to recommend?
Since you mentioned friends with EPROM programmers, I suggest you ask one of them to read the ROM from the SCSI card.
The first ten bytes should be 00 1B 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00, to set the card ID to 1B, and the counter/pointers to 0. I think the rest can remain blank (FF's).
Depending on what they find, you could ask VintageMicros to resolve the problem, or just reprogram the part, or program a new one if your friend has some on hand - it is a 2716.
-
The first ten bytes should be 00 1B 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00, to set the card ID to 1B, and the counter/pointers to 0. I think the rest can remain blank (FF's).
Depending on what they find, you could ask VintageMicros to resolve the problem, or just reprogram the part, or program a new one if your friend has some on hand - it is a 2716.
Do I understand correctly that the only data on the ROM is 00 1B 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 and the rest is blank??
Therefore, I don't need any special data to make a new ROM?
-
Yep, that's all you need. There's no actual code; the 1B is there to identify the card to MacWorks as a SCSI card, and MacWorks handles the rest. I've attached a file that you can burn straight into a 2732 if that makes things easier.
-
Yep, that's all you need. There's no actual code; the 1B is there to identify the card to MacWorks as a SCSI card, and MacWorks handles the rest. I've attached a file that you can burn straight into a 2732 if that makes things easier.
Thank You!
-
Yep, that's all you need. There's no actual code; the 1B is there to identify the card to MacWorks as a SCSI card, and MacWorks handles the rest. I've attached a file that you can burn straight into a 2732 if that makes things easier.
Component golf challenge: you're MacGyver, the 2732 is missing, and you don't have an EPROM burner anyway. You need to reproduce the ROM with TTL ICs, discrete transistors, and/or passives --- or at least (it sounds like) you need something that returns 00 1B 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 for addresses 0..9. How do you do it? Note that use of a 74LS68[2/4/5/7/8] e.g. or similar is basically cheating :-) Highest marks for lowest BOM cost.
-
Component golf challenge: you're MacGyver, the 2732 is missing, and you don't have an EPROM burner anyway. You need to reproduce the ROM with TTL ICs, discrete transistors, and/or passives --- or at least (it sounds like) you need something that returns 00 1B 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 for addresses 0..9. How do you do it? Note that use of a 74LS68[2/4/5/7/8] e.g. or similar is basically cheating :-) Highest marks for lowest BOM cost.
Here's what I came up with. Not sure if it's the most optimized design possible, but it's something! It just consists of a 74LS04 hex inverter, 74LS08 quad 2-input AND gate, and a 74LS245 bus transceiver, and will produce the pattern 00 1B 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 repeatedly as you increment through the ROM's address space.
The top circuit in the Logisim screenshot is the design expressed in terms of gates, and the stuff on the bottom is the schematic using the actual TTL logic chips. The real design uses more gates than the one on the top because of the LS245's active-low enable pin that isn't represented in the top design.
To avoid having to add another chip, I omitted the RD signal that's used on the EPROM's /G pin and I'm only using /SLn for chip selection. I'm operating under the assumption that nothing will ever try to write to anything in the lower half of the card's address space since the only thing there is the EPROM, and this should hopefully be a safe assumption.
The parts cost comes out to $2.81, less than a single 2732 from most online sources, so not too bad!
-
So...
Is it a 2732 or 2716??
I see lots of variants, -b, etc Should any version work?
program a new one if your friend has some on hand - it is a 2716.
Component golf challenge: you're MacGyver, the 2732 is missing, and you don't have an EPROM burner anyway....
-
Either one will work. The 2732 is twice the capacity of the 2716, so you'd just duplicate the ROM image to fill the entirety of the ROM if you used the 2732. I believe the ROM file I sent you is 4K though, so it's the proper size for a 2732 to begin with.
And yeah, any variant should work!
-
I just recieved a new Sun Remarketing Lisa SCSI card from Vintage Micros.
The card looks great but it is giving me a Card Error 92 on bootup.
bmwcyclist,
I am sorry you are having issues with this board from Vintage Micros. Normally these boards are very reliable, you should not have deal with this much trouble to get it going.
On behalf of Vintage Micros, I will repair or replace your defective SCSI card. Please PM me and we will get you fixed up.
Thank you,
Rick
-
Rick, thank you for the offer!
John is currently working on a CPU card for me, so I don't want to bother him just now, and I don't mind troubleshooting the SCSI card, I am learning a great deal.
I have been in IT and IS since the mid 1990's but always on the networking and security side, never low-level hardware or development.
But if I don't get it working after the ROM experiments I will get in contact with you. Thanks!!!
I just recieved a new Sun Remarketing Lisa SCSI card from Vintage Micros.
The card looks great but it is giving me a Card Error 92 on bootup.
bmwcyclist,
I am sorry you are having issues with this board from Vintage Micros. Normally these boards are very reliable, you should not have deal with this much trouble to get it going.
On behalf of Vintage Micros, I will repair or replace your defective SCSI card. Please PM me and we will get you fixed up.
Thank you,
Rick
-
Rick,
I still have not had time to build a chip tester.
If your offer is still open, I would like to send you the card for diagnostics.
I just recieved a new Sun Remarketing Lisa SCSI card from Vintage Micros.
The card looks great but it is giving me a Card Error 92 on bootup.
bmwcyclist,
I am sorry you are having issues with this board from Vintage Micros. Normally these boards are very reliable, you should not have deal with this much trouble to get it going.
On behalf of Vintage Micros, I will repair or replace your defective SCSI card. Please PM me and we will get you fixed up.
Thank you,
Rick
-
Rick,
I still have not had time to build a chip tester.
If your offer is still open, I would like to send you the card for diagnostics.
bmwcyclist, please PM me and I will help you.
Rick