LisaList2

General Category => LisaList2 => Topic started by: blusnowkitty on September 23, 2020, 08:40:10 pm

Title: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on September 23, 2020, 08:40:10 pm
Was looking at ToastyTech's old pages on Lisa screenshots, and found where he asked if anyone had a  list of all the software developed for the Lisa (http://toastytech.com/guis/lisa3.html). So I decided to take a shot at it and was actually quite surprised at what I found - did anyone realize there was potentially this much software available? I'm sure much of it is vaporware but it seems to hint at how rich the future could have been.

Sources are what's generally available on the Internet, and a couple of docs from Bitsavers. There's also a few other links to Google Books which I think at least indicates certain titles were available to purchase - whether anyone actually did is another story.

Let me know if anyone has any sort of proof any of the titles here existed or if there's any more concrete evidence for some of the ones I think made it to market!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1STG0Le_8dMHRLf026x6YfXzRQm2hD0igeZVb2Hx0Lxo/edit?usp=sharing
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: rayarachelian on September 23, 2020, 09:18:00 pm
I mean... https://lisafaq.sunder.net/single.html#lisafaq-sw-los_about

Best proof is to get disk images up on bitsavers and other places. :)

Some updates to your spreadsheet:

IDOL and Thoroughbred accounting software is for Xenix. I have disks for these but they have errors and won't image properly

There is a C language addon for LPW, that exists, there are docs on bitsavers for it.

Don't know about a Xenix SDK, but the development disks for it are part of the xenix distro, so presumably that's part of it. I don't know if a separate SDK was available.

Lex I think is the unix lex command, i.e. flex/yacc, etc. see: https://arcb.csc.ncsu.edu/~mueller/codeopt/codeopt00/y_man.pdf - I don't think this is a word processor. It's used to build syntax for languages and help build compilers.
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on September 23, 2020, 09:52:40 pm
I mean... https://lisafaq.sunder.net/single.html#lisafaq-sw-los_about

Best proof is to get disk images up on bitsavers and other places. :)

Some updates to your spreadsheet:

IDOL and Thoroughbred accounting software is for Xenix. I have disks for these but they have errors and won't image properly

There is a C language addon for LPW, that exists, there are docs on bitsavers for it.

Don't know about a Xenix SDK, but the development disks for it are part of the xenix distro, so presumably that's part of it. I don't know if a separate SDK was available.

Lex I think is the unix lex command, i.e. flex/yacc, etc. see: https://arcb.csc.ncsu.edu/~mueller/codeopt/codeopt00/y_man.pdf - I don't think this is a word processor. It's used to build syntax for languages and help build compilers.

Thanks for this, I've updated my list. The largest source was the February 1984 Marketing Binder (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/marketing/Lisa_Sales_Marketing_Binder_Feb84.pdf) up on Bitsavers starting at Page 268. The "XENIX SDK" in my document is a little bit shaky admittedly; the Apple document lists a separate "XENIX Software Development Environment" as its own product, and the "Lex" product as a word processor. It could be the document's wrong; Wikipedia says that Yacc's first full spec was first published in '75 so it very well could be that this UniPlus Lex is an implementation of that. Hard to say without having the software...

I assume your IDOL and Thoroughbred disks are Sony 3.5" disks?
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: rayarachelian on September 24, 2020, 09:27:34 am
Apple document lists a separate "XENIX Software Development Environment" as its own product, and the "Lex" product as a word processor. It could be the document's wrong; Wikipedia says that Yacc's first full spec was first published in '75 so it very well could be that this UniPlus Lex is an implementation of that. Hard to say without having the software...

I assume your IDOL and Thoroughbred disks are Sony 3.5" disks?

Although it's possible, I'd be surprised if lex wasn't included in both Xenix and UniPlus as it's pretty standard.

Yes, IDOL/Thoroghbred disks are all 3.5" floppies, they came with a Lisa that had a Widget, and Tecmar Quad Port Serial card installed, and a batch of also deteriorating bad Xenix floppies. I'm pretty sure I imaged them with CopyIIMac to dc42 and set the ignore errors flag, but pretty much every single floppy had many bad sectors. (The Widget on this drive had MacWorks installed and Lotus Jazz, which is the one that's on Macintosh Garden now.)

One thing that's missing from the Lisa and hasn't ever surfaced was LisaPaint. It ofc became MacPaint, but I don't think it was ever released. I'd love it if it made its way to bitsavers. Possibly it was buggy or whatever, and then just got ported to the Mac.

Inversely, there was a MacDraw (as well as MacTerm, MacProject, MacWrite.) I don't think that Calc, Graph, List, were published for the Mac, likely because they would compete with MicroSoft Word, and Jazz, and other third party products, and drive away developers, or something.)
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on September 24, 2020, 12:23:35 pm
Yes, IDOL/Thoroghbred disks are all 3.5" floppies, they came with a Lisa that had a Widget, and Tecmar Quad Port Serial card installed, and a batch of also deteriorating bad Xenix floppies. I'm pretty sure I imaged them with CopyIIMac to dc42 and set the ignore errors flag, but pretty much every single floppy had many bad sectors. (The Widget on this drive had MacWorks installed and Lotus Jazz, which is the one that's on Macintosh Garden now.)

One thing that's missing from the Lisa and hasn't ever surfaced was LisaPaint. It ofc became MacPaint, but I don't think it was ever released. I'd love it if it made its way to bitsavers. Possibly it was buggy or whatever, and then just got ported to the Mac.

Inversely, there was a MacDraw (as well as MacTerm, MacProject, MacWrite.) I don't think that Calc, Graph, List, were published for the Mac, likely because they would compete with MicroSoft Word, and Jazz, and other third party products, and drive away developers, or something.)

Thanks, got all that added as well. I've also found this article (https://www.apple.asimov.net/documentation/applelisa/AppleLisa-DevelopmentTeam.pdf) which had a couple test apps listed for development; if I'm going to list the BBC weather app why not any known internal apps too? Smalltalk-80's in there as well now. Interestingly there's a mention of "Lisa Unix" there - I have to wonder if that was a working title for XENIX or UniPlus, or if Apple themselves licensed and intended to port UNIX.

Also, I noticed that Lisa Workshop C made it to Bitsavers just a couple months ago so I might have to see about playing with that to see if you can write Office System applications in Lisa C. Pascal is interesting; I don't really know the syntax but I do a lot of C# work and well, Pascal just feels like a much more primitive version of that. http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/c/
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: rayarachelian on September 24, 2020, 12:56:15 pm
UniPlus comes from real AT&T unix (lowercase I believe), made by UniSoft - they made bespoke unix software for many vendors, Apple included. A/UX comes from UniPlus as well, but possibly a later versions. bitsavers has source code for some of the kernel and tools.

I first learned Basic, then 6502 assembly on the commodore lines (first Pets, then vic20, then c64, then c128), then in high school had access to real IBM 5150 PCs and learned turbo pascal. I really liked Pascal, but mostly because of the IDE. That is, until I learned C and then never looked back at Pascal again. :) I dislike pascal now. Like you said, too primitive. I know some folks around these parts like it and will defend it.
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: D.Finni on September 24, 2020, 01:11:23 pm
Also, I noticed that Lisa Workshop C made it to Bitsavers just a couple months ago so I might have to see about playing with that to see if you can write Office System applications in Lisa C.
Don't count on it unless you have an early beta version of Workshop C. The newer versions of Lisa Workshop C are cross-compilers only for Macintosh.

I have only a single Workshop C disk, version 0.9.6 (https://macgui.com/downloads/?file_id=34897).
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: stepleton on September 24, 2020, 01:19:24 pm
Whoa, what? When did these Lisa C things turn up? I think I need to subscribe to some kind of newsfeed...

That marketing binder mentions that there was a company out there working on an APL environment for Lisa, if memory serves. I would love to get my hands on anything like that, assuming it ever saw the light of day!

It does occur to me that there are a few more recent pieces of Lisa software that are absent from your list :)
Minimally I think BLU ought to be mentioned---it's probably one of the most popular Lisa programs around!
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: D.Finni on September 24, 2020, 01:23:54 pm
I just investigated the Workshop C on Bitsavers (http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/c/Lisa_Workshop_C.zip) and on Disk 2 it has headers only for Macintosh, dated August 1985. I think it's safe to say that this is the Macintosh-only version of Workshop C.

As for my single Workshop C disk, I am less sure. But the file catalog shows an awful lot of Mac-only files.
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on September 24, 2020, 02:31:57 pm
I suppose if someone really wanted to, they could adapt the Macintosh C SDK into a Lisa C SDK. If the compiler runs on Lisa...

New tab's added for more modern-day releases like BLU and Tom's various github releases.
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on October 02, 2020, 11:00:18 pm
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Informix-V3-11-for-SCO-Xenix-for-the-Apple-Lisa-2-Complete-Disk-Set-Verified/402471817430

Rare find on eBay tonight - Informix 3.11 for XENIX 3.0! Since the price wasn't too bad I went ahead and bought this set, and hopefully the disks are still good and can still be read. Plus I always wanted some of those manual shutter floppy disks anyway...

Dumping should be fun though. My Lisa's decided to not play nice over serial again, so I'll probably pull out the Powerbook 150 and try to dc42 dump them that way. This is now a confirmed release on the list!
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on October 06, 2020, 12:52:10 pm
Found a few more XENIX applications from the same seller I bought my copy of Informix from... unfortunately, they all sold before I saw them. Here's some pictures anyway, and once again the list is updated!
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: rayarachelian on October 06, 2020, 01:08:42 pm
Found a few more XENIX applications from the same seller I bought my copy of Informix from... unfortunately, they all sold before I saw them. Here's some pictures anyway, and once again the list is updated!

So that Cobol was a loss unless whomever bought it images it and puts it online. The other disks, Text Processing and Development I think are already up on bitsavers, text processing might be listed as Lyrix, I don't recall, but it should be a word processor, either that, or it's standard stuff like sed, ed, vi, grep, etc.
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: compu_85 on October 06, 2020, 10:02:22 pm
I think Lyrix is different than text processing IIRC, which has things like wc, spell, cut, and formatting for typesetters.
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on October 13, 2020, 08:12:47 pm
Got my Informix disks in today and there were no file issues as far as I can tell! Unfortunately, there's another issue - the program requires activation which we can no longer do. It calls /once/brand to serialize the installation, so perhaps some inspiration from OS/2 Museum can be applied here? http://www.os2museum.com/wp/tales-from-the-xenix-crypt/

If anyone wants to take a "crack" at it, I've uploaded the images in a ZIP archive to the Files subforum. Have fun! Anyone got Al Kossow's contact info?
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: rayarachelian on October 13, 2020, 09:08:23 pm
Got my Informix disks in today and there were no file issues as far as I can tell! Unfortunately, there's another issue - the program requires activation which we can no longer do. It calls /once/brand to serialize the installation, so perhaps some inspiration from OS/2 Museum can be applied here? http://www.os2museum.com/wp/tales-from-the-xenix-crypt/

Excellent!

If anyone wants to take a "crack" at it, I've uploaded the images in a ZIP archive to the Files subforum. Have fun!

Oh I plan to have lots of fun with this! I've seen this kind of thing before.

Anyone got Al Kossow's contact info?

He's on here, you can DM him: https://lisalist2.com/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;u=45 or try aek (a) bit savers {dot} org.
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: compu_85 on October 15, 2020, 09:15:27 am
rayarachelian defeated the brand software for Multiplan a few years ago :)
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: rayarachelian on October 15, 2020, 11:07:03 am
rayarachelian defeated the brand software for Multiplan a few years ago :)

Yup: https://lisalist2.com/lisalist1/2496.html (warning, it's full of Rick and Morty memes)

I'm not sure if this will work the same or not, but I plan to use the same approach. But basically there, I went around brand and modified the multiplan executable itself after seeing how brand works. though yes, I started with brand.

However, this is also an excuse for me to try to get Xenix going on LisaEm as well - the issue seems to be that it doesn't like my profile emulation, so I'm going to try to either placate Xenix or if I can disassemble enough of the driver, to use High Level Emulation to get around it.
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on October 15, 2020, 04:07:45 pm
I feel honored to have contributed to LisaEm in a roundabout way :P
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: rayarachelian on October 15, 2020, 04:20:11 pm
I feel honored to have contributed to LisaEm in a roundabout way :P

Hey any contribution is a good contribution. :-D
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: snuci on January 14, 2021, 09:24:22 pm
Got Keystroke Database and Report Generator recently...

Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on January 16, 2021, 10:00:14 pm
Awesome! Any info on version, what OS it runs on?
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: rayarachelian on January 18, 2021, 11:06:45 am
And also could you scan in the manual and put a disk image up of it, either here or on bitsavers?
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: snuci on January 18, 2021, 08:38:08 pm
Awesome! Any info on version, what OS it runs on?

It's a 3.5" disk and runs on Lisa 7/7.  It's version A-1 and the manual indicates there was an earlier version.

And also could you scan in the manual and put a disk image up of it, either here or on bitsavers?

I scanned the manual and have it here:  http://vintagecomputer.ca/files/Apple/Lisa/documents/KeystrokeforLisaManual.pdf

I have not yet imaged the floppy.  What is the best method to do this?  I do have an Apple Sauce imager.  Will it do a 7/7 compatible disk?  I've never tried it.



Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on January 18, 2021, 10:05:43 pm
I have not yet imaged the floppy.  What is the best method to do this?  I do have an Apple Sauce imager.  Will it do a 7/7 compatible disk?  I've never tried it.

I would probably say booting up BLU and dumping the disk over RS-232 is your best bet
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: rayarachelian on January 18, 2021, 11:20:40 pm
I scanned the manual and have it here:  http://vintagecomputer.ca/files/Apple/Lisa/documents/KeystrokeforLisaManual.pdf
I have not yet imaged the floppy.  What is the best method to do this?  I do have an Apple Sauce imager.  Will it do a 7/7 compatible disk?  I've never tried it.


Great! If you can attach a serial cable with hardware handshaking to Serial Port B of your Lisa and something with XModem support on the other end (i.e. minicom, Zterm, hyperterminal, etc.) you could boot off a BLU floppy from here: http://sigmasevensystems.com/BLU.html

Otherwise, if you have a classic Mac (i.e. System 9 and lower with a floppy drive), you can use Disk Copy 4.2 to image it and then find a way to transfer that file to a modern machine.
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on January 18, 2021, 11:51:44 pm
Hang on, the manual says there's two disks... do you have both disks?
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: snuci on January 19, 2021, 09:43:22 am
Hang on, the manual says there's two disks... do you have both disks?

Bummer.  I only got one disk with it.  At least we have the manual and know it exists.  I guess there's not much point at archiving the one disk :(
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: rayarachelian on January 19, 2021, 10:39:05 am
Bummer.  I only got one disk with it.  At least we have the manual and know it exists.  I guess there's not much point at archiving the one disk :(

do it anyway, the first disk might be enough, maybe the 2nd disk is for examples, etc.
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on January 19, 2021, 06:45:07 pm
I'll second Ray - better to have something preserved than nothing at all!
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: fri0701 on February 07, 2021, 10:21:34 am
Hi everyone,
I recently purchased the copy of Art Department (the 3rd-party LisaDraw clipart package) that was for sale on eBay. I've scanned everything included, and I've uploaded it all to an archive.org project here: https://archive.org/details/apple-lisa-art-department/

I don't own a Lisa with Twiggy drives, but I'm hoping to be able to meet up with someone post-pandemic who can help me dump the included disk.

@blusnowkitty - you may be interested to know that in the manual I received, a reference is made to the clipart being on "One 5 1/4-inch diskette or two 3 1/2-inch microdiskettes (Parts A and B)", so it does seem like this clipart package did make it onto the Lisa 2. The hunt continues...

Things included in the archive:
- scans of the case (I apologize for the streaking - the outer graphics are sealed in a warped plastic "envelope")
- scans of the included disk and sleeve
- a PDF scan of the manual
- scans of the clipart index. These fold-out cards were included so the user could put them in their LisaDraw binder and reference the available clipart. They are pretty long, so I scanned them in pieces and put them together digitally to visualize what they look like when laid out flat.
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: rayarachelian on February 07, 2021, 03:21:10 pm
Many thanks @fri0701! This is awesome!
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on February 09, 2021, 10:47:47 am
Cool, I've updated Art Department's entry on the list. Thanks!
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: stepleton on February 09, 2021, 07:07:08 pm
Note the Lisa image on page 8/13, under "Equipment"
https://archive.org/details/apple-lisa-art-department/Office.jpg

Look familiar? The clue for me is the screen image generically showing us some "Presentation Graphics". That's the image that's on the front of all of David T. Craig's collected documents.

@fri0701: as time and conditions allow, I'm always happy to try and recover Twiggy disk data. The disks have to make it to London somehow. Whether I'm a good option for you or not, how do the disks look --- is the media surface in good condition, or is it mouldy or degraded?

Thanks for scanning these!
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: fri0701 on February 12, 2021, 10:18:03 pm
@stepleton - I appreciate your offer, but I'm in the US and would prefer to avoid shipping internationally. To be honest, I'd prefer to avoid shipping *altogether*, but we'll see how that works out.
I don't notice anything odd about the media surface - it all looks to be in pretty good condition.
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: blusnowkitty on April 06, 2021, 02:35:34 pm

@blusnowkitty - you may be interested to know that in the manual I received, a reference is made to the clipart being on "One 5 1/4-inch diskette or two 3 1/2-inch microdiskettes (Parts A and B)", so it does seem like this clipart package did make it onto the Lisa 2. The hunt continues...


Just found a copy of Art Department for the Lisa 2 over here as part of this package deal: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Lisa-2-10-w-keyboard-mouse-software-manuals-books-and-extras/393235786106

Seller won't split anything up unfortunately.
Title: Re: List of All Lisa Software
Post by: rayarachelian on April 06, 2021, 10:14:08 pm

Just found a copy of Art Department for the Lisa 2 over here as part of this package deal: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Lisa-2-10-w-keyboard-mouse-software-manuals-books-and-extras/393235786106

Seller won't split anything up unfortunately.

That Lisa's a bit overpriced, but going by ebay prices a full set of the LOS manuals + disks is somewhere between $300-$500, but the disk folder's spine is ripped at the top and the labels are getting eaten off by the glue - not sure what the value of Art Department is. That older Owner's Guide is worth maybe $150.
Not sure about MacWorks, but it's not MacWorks II+ so not quite all that much. Maybe another $150?
Not sure how much the keyboard shortcuts are worth, though I don't see the full set in the photos, just one. There should be 3.
That's a Lisa 1 mouse, which is worth $500-$900 in ebay prices.
The good news is that this is a 2/10 so it won't have the leak issue, though I really question $3.5K for a dead Lisa. The odds of the Widget working are low.
The odds of the power supply being repairable by recapping is high, but still annoying.
The keyboard would be worth $200-$300 (if it was fully rebuilt with all the keys working.)
The missing apple logo on the faceplate is not great, would cost you $100-$200 for a new faceplate.
It's also missing the front feet, those could be replaced with non-authentic ones for a couple of bucks.
But who knows if something else is terribly wrong, like maybe the analog board.

So it's not a terrible deal, but it's certainly not a good one either. It might be worth buying, fixing, and reselling, but for $3.5K? That's a bit of a stretch there.
Yes, I see there's a crazy person who's listed a Lisa 2 for $9K. Not sure about the math on that one, but it's not from this reality.