LisaList2

Quote from: Lisa2 on October 14, 2025, 11:24:27 am

Quote from: TorZidan on October 13, 2025, 06:06:12 pm

The "wireless connection through blue SCSI" that bmwcyclist currently uses to get on the internet is  basically some software on the BlueSCSI card that emulates a DynaPort SCSI Ethernet adapter (along with emulating a SCSI hard drive): https://bluescsi.com/docs/WiFi-DaynaPORT

AFAIK, this is the easiest way to get old MACs and Lisa-s on the internets (along with PiSCSI, which is very similar to BlueSCSI).

I disagree.

Rick, are you saying that there is an easier way (than using a BlueSCSI) to get a vintage Mac or a Lisa on the Internet? Please give us more details : what is the extra hardware and software needed?

I don't intend to answer for Rick.

I do want to clarify a few things.

I think there is a difference between "getting on the internet" and doing some of the more useful things on the internet. Using my Lisa under MW and 2 megabytes of RAM, about all I can do is use terminal software and ping. Using my XLerator card and 4 megs of RAM, I can (just barely) use an early browser (Mac Web) and some remote access software.

So far, I have achieved all of this with a BlueSCSI through an XLerator or Sun SCSI card.

I hope to now start trying to encapsulate AppleTalk through IP networks and connect to a remote Mac at my friend's house to play RoboSport.

Quote from: TorZidan on October 13, 2025, 06:06:12 pm

The "wireless connection through blue SCSI" that bmwcyclist currently uses to get on the internet is  basically some software on the BlueSCSI card that emulates a DynaPort SCSI Ethernet adapter (along with emulating a SCSI hard drive): https://bluescsi.com/docs/WiFi-DaynaPORT

AFAIK, this is the easiest way to get old MACs and Lisa-s on the internets (along with PiSCSI, which is very similar to BlueSCSI).

I disagree.

Rick, are you saying that there is an easier way (than using a BlueSCSI) to get a vintage Mac or a Lisa on the Internet? Please give us more details : what is the extra hardware and software needed?

Quote from: TorZidan on October 13, 2025, 06:06:12 pm

The "wireless connection through blue SCSI" that bmwcyclist currently uses to get on the internet is  basically some software on the BlueSCSI card that emulates a DynaPort SCSI Ethernet adapter (along with emulating a SCSI hard drive): https://bluescsi.com/docs/WiFi-DaynaPORT

AFAIK, this is the easiest way to get old MACs and Lisa-s on the internets (along with PiSCSI, which is very similar to BlueSCSI).

I disagree.  The BlueSCSI card's SCSI Ethernet emulation is handicapped by it's WiFi connection.  Here is why:

Appletalk over Ethernet uses a different Ethernet frame type than common modern TCP/IP over Ethernet does.   Most WiFi routers don't pass this frame type, so unless you have the right router, Appletalk data goes nowhere.

Using MacTCP you can directly connect to a TCP/IP network, but many MacTCP compatible applications require System 6.08 or better and that requires you run MW+II.   For MW+II you will likely need more RAM and possibly an XLerator.

Rick

Interesting!

I hope to be playing with a number of these options soon.

I just purchased a SCSI-Ethernet (Asanti) adapter off of ebay, I have 2 BlueSCSI v2 units with wifi and I am also awaiting a serial to localtalk cable (vintage Lisa) from ebay, as well as 2 Raspberry Pi v4's to run as "routers".

(I was trying to hold out for some Gatorboxes but none have shown up for sale, I would love to see if I can setup a site to site link/tunnel with them)

One thing I have found as frustrating, and this is not limited to old Mac stuff, is that the terms bridge, router, and gateway (as in protocol translation, not as in 'default gateway'/'default router', which is a legacy term for gateway) are so often misused. I always need to locate the documentation and hope it clarifies which OSI layer the device operates on. Don't mind me, though, I still get agitated when someone says 'cable modem' and I have to bite my tongue to keep from asking "exactly where is the modulation-demodulation happening?

The "wireless connection through blue SCSI" that bmwcyclist currently uses to get on the internet is  basically some software on the BlueSCSI card that emulates a DynaPort SCSI Ethernet adapter (along with emulating a SCSI hard drive): https://bluescsi.com/docs/WiFi-DaynaPORT

AFAIK, this is the easiest way to get old MACs and Lisa-s on the internets (along with PiSCSI, which is very similar to BlueSCSI).

I disagree.  The BlueSCSI card's SCSI Ethernet emulation is handicapped by it's WiFi connection.  Here is why:

Appletalk over Ethernet uses a different Ethernet frame type than common modern TCP/IP over Ethernet does.   Most WiFi routers don't pass this frame type, so unless you have the right router, Appletalk data goes nowhere.

Using MacTCP you can directly connect to a TCP/IP network, but many MacTCP compatible applications require System 6.08 or better and that requires you run MW+II.   For MW+II you will likely need more RAM and possibly an XLerator.

Rick

1. The poll should allow more than one choice!

2. I am too new to the LISA scene to know anything useful about collecting prices. However, I have been buying, restoring, and selling vintage and antique motorcycles for many decades.

If we assume that there is some cross-over when it comes to collecting, repairing, using ,and selling vintage stuff then perhaps there are a few things worth considering:

a. With vintage motorcycles, some people buy with the intent of fixing and reselling them as an investment. Very few have managed to make a living, let alone a reasonable part-time hourly wage, doing this. Typically, it is a "labor of love". More commonly, it is a person wanting to make enough money to move on to the next project.

b. With vintage motorcycles, the price bump comes mainly from people who have become successful later in life and then go back and buy the motorcycle they either had when they were young or the bike they always wanted but did not get when they were young. These bikes are the ones that tend to see the big bump in resale value for a few years, then settle down again.

c. Some buy vintage motorcycles because they are attracted by the older technology and unique designs. Basically, gear-head nerds.


I fall squarely into B. and C. for both motorcycles and vintage computers.

I have restored from the ground up several extremely unique and rare motorcycles that are true museum pieces. I doubt I will get much more out of them than I spent restoring them, if you count my time as well as the parts.

https://youtu.be/VDUVjnkTJW4

.https://youtube.com/shorts/N7PbNoo6so8

Thanks and correction made - I'd lean to constructive corrections not so much criticism least that was the intent!

A small correction: the Computer History Museum (aka CHM) being criticized in this post is located in Mountain View California, not in Boston.

A small correction: the Computer History Museum (aka CHM) being criticized in this post is located in Mountain View California, not in Boston.

I want to "connect the dots", even though the name of this thread has nothing to do with this
The "wireless connection through blue SCSI" that bmwcyclist currently uses to get on the internet is  basically some software on the BlueSCSI card that emulates a DynaPort SCSI Ethernet adapter (along with emulating a SCSI hard drive): https://bluescsi.com/docs/WiFi-DaynaPORT

AFAIK, this is the easiest way to get old MACs and Lisa-s on the internets (along with PiSCSI, which is very similar to BlueSCSI).

The original DynaPort SCSI Ethernet adapter came in few different configurations: some had a BNC connector to connect to a 10Base2 local ethernet network (and from there to the internet), others had an RJ45 jack for the same.

Great!

The market for LISA computers and components has seen a remarkable increase in value over the past five to ten years, with some rare items fetching exceptionally high prices. It’s logical that the LISA-1 and LISA-2 configurations are appreciating, simply due to their scarcity.

This evolving market warrants a dedicated discussion, as current conversations about valuation and rarity are often fragmented in threads. While enthusiasts, including myself, appreciate the minute details of early PC board versions, the discussion needs to extend to market dynamics.

It’s my opinion that the LISA ecosystem mirrors the vintage car market, attracting different types of participants: some driven by nostalgia, others who modify systems for enhanced aesthetics or functionality, and purist collectors.

Collectors themselves have varying priorities, from those who value provenance, matching serial numbers, and period-correct components, to those who basically enjoy technology hacking.. Understanding these roles is crucial given the limited production numbers of LISA computers.

For instance, a well-functioning, original (even if repaired) power supply holds more intrinsic value than a modern retrofit, much like the unseen components under the hood.. While an observer might only see a classic 1963 Ferrari GTO, the difference becomes apparent upon closer inspection.

I'm sharing these thoughts to spark a broader conversation about the LISA market and the short window but larger impact. While eBay has been a primary sales channel, auction houses are increasingly featuring collectible items. However, for high-value items, comprehensive visual information is crucial. We've all encountered listings that lack sufficient detail, cut and paste historicals, and gaps in imagery leading to unanswered questions about the item's history, condition, or even included software and accessories. The Paul Allen collection, for example, sparsely covered its contents, perhaps relying on the "LISA-1" designation alone to justify six-figure valuations. These high values lead to "bastardized" LISA-1, muddying the market, jading collectors, diminishing value for those doing proper restoration.  Heck, I remember looking at a ‘71 Cutlass convertible that had the 4-4-2 hood, rims and details - not a real 4-4-2 but it fulfilled my high school vehicle itch.

For these reasons, I'm seeking a consensus on common shortcomings in past sales and auctions—information gaps that left us wanting more. I'm eager to hear others' perspectives on the market, how they engage with it, their collection goals, and what they would like to see in terms of transparent presentation of items for sale.

What say you?