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Author Topic: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card  (Read 14975 times)

friedboard

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Trying to isolate a problem on a potentially fried IO floppy controller, does anyone know if the Lisa will return error 57 without the "Lite" Interface Card plugged in?
Mine is returning the error without the interface card, or with the interface card + floppyemu. But no error with original floppy drive (the drive doesn't work).

Trying to see if this is something on the IO board or lite interface card.
Looking at the error code in service mode in address fcc017 shows
10 ERROR: invalid format parameter

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sigma7

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2025, 02:08:26 am »

a potentially fried IO floppy controller, does anyone know if the Lisa will return error 57 without the "Lite" Interface Card plugged in?

My experience is that error 57 generally indicates the FDC isn't responding to the 68k. There is a CPU ROM assembly listing that can be studied to see the specific conditions, but I think you won't get more troubleshooting information beyond "FDC not working"... ie. you won't find out any details as to why it isn't working.

"Invalid format parameter" is an error returned by the command validation check ("VALIDATE" in the I/O ROM) when the 68k tries to command the FDC to format/initialize a floppy, but hasn't setup the correct settings for formatting. It is set at $170E in the I/O ROM rev. A8 assembly listing (couldn't find that, but this 2/10 listing is similar: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/firmware/IO_ROM_88_Listing_Dec83.pdf.

Although I'm sure they can fail, I believe Lite Adapters are not a common failure point. More likely is a poor contact between the I/O EPROM or 6504 and their socket, or the I/O or CPU Board and the motherboard.

Perhaps your 6504 isn't running (or not running valid code). Some suggestions:

- Test that you can successfully write and read back to the SRAM shared with the FDC, eg. can you change the byte at FCC017  ? (Note that the 68000 can't access a word at an odd address - if you try, you will get an error bouncing you out of service mode. So you may find it easier to write a 16 bit value to FCC016)
- If the 6504 is doing it's normal "waiting for command" loop, the "ImAlive" byte should be changing at FCC051
- Is the 8T97 U2F on the I/O Board hot; I think that can indicate damage due to an incorrectly plugged in drive?

I suppose it is also appropriate to check you have a self-consistent hardware configuration... ie. if you are trying to use a Lite Adapter, you should have a 2/5 I/O Board (two, not 3 large chips at the top left), a 2/5 Motherboard (with a rear panel parallel port), and 2/5 chassis wiring (two 26 pin ribbon cables in the drive cage area).
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friedboard

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2025, 03:45:36 am »

Nice, thanks for the suggestions!

- I can write and read back from FCC017 just fine, no errors even if I read or write directly from FCC017 and the value updates.
- The value at FCC051 is always different every time I try to read it, is that a good sign?
- The chip at 8T97 feels normal and is not HOT.

Some background: I plugged in an ESProfile emulator into the 26 pin port right next to the lite adapter board which fried a floppyemu that is connected to the adapter and the Lisa no longer boots through another working floppyemu.
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AlexTheCat123

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2025, 08:37:32 am »

Some background: I plugged in an ESProfile emulator into the 26 pin port right next to the lite adapter board which fried a floppyemu that is connected to the adapter and the Lisa no longer boots through another working floppyemu.

Yep, that's almost certainly what's causing your issues right there. On the Lisa 2/5, the parallel port for the ProFile is going to be on the back of the machine, not in the drive bay like on the 2/10. The extra 26-pin cable next to the Lite Adapter is the cable for the second Twiggy drive, and it's not compatible with hard drives (or hard drive emulators). So plugging an ESProFile into that port fried the floppy stuff and could've fried your ESProFile too.

It's unfortunate that both the ProFile cable and the Twiggy cable use 26-pin connectors; Apple really should've designed it so that you can't accidentally plug one into another!
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sigma7

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2025, 02:07:34 pm »

- The value at FCC051 is always different every time I try to read it, is that a good sign?

Yes and no... it probably means the 6504 is running and reading the EPROM correctly, which is good, but means you don't have a simple problem to solve.

Quote
plugged in an ESProfile emulator into the 26 pin port right next to the lite adapter board

That's an easy mistake to make. Back in the 80's we didn't have the plethora of inexpensive connectors available today, so it was more difficult to make all connectors unique (eg. the serial and parallel back panel connectors both using DB-25). However, having been made in those 'simpler' times, the Lisa is also much more repairable than modern computers.

The pinout of the Twiggy drive cable can be observed from the Twiggy Digital Board schematic that it once plugged into.
https://lisalist2.com/index.php/topic,524.msg3712.html#msg3712

The pinout of the parallel port connector (that the ESProFile expects) is nicely presented in Patrick's IDEfile documents
http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/patrick/idefile.htm

Since TTL is generally tolerant of misconnections between 0 and 5V, I'd guess the problem on the Lisa side was caused by the ground pins of the ESProFile shorting +12V to something. (You might find more issues beyond this.)

On the parallel port 26 pin header as used by a Widget, these pins are connected together for ground: 2,3,7,12,14,17,19,22,26 I don't know if all of them are used for ground by the ESProFile but for some other device they are likely to be, so we will consider them all.

On the Twiggy Digital Board Schematic, +12 is connected to pins 1,3,5,7.

In addition we have -5V on pin 25.

So plugging those devices together is likely to put +12V on what would normally be Widget ground pins (but are not ground for the floppy connector).

The pins suffering this potential injustice are:
 2 - Phi A
12 - /WREQ
14 - RData
17 - -12V
19 - (n/c)
22 - MClk
26 - (n/c)

-12V is weak supply, but the circuit to the PSU may have been damaged, so first check that:
a) all the voltages from the PSU are within tolerance (measure at points on the I/O Board), and
b) +12 and -5 still make it to the end of the Twiggy connector ribbon cable

Tracing those signals to the I/O Board:

Phi A comes from the 8T97 U2F, which is used by the FDC to interrogate the floppy drive for disk-in-place, write protect, move the head etc. I imagine that if this were damaged, the FDC might hang trying to access the floppy, resulting in error 57.

/WREQ comes from U3F-10, but is only used for writing to the floppy, so maybe U3F is damaged; you may not find out until you try to write to a floppy.

RData goes to U5B-13. Again you may not find out if U5B is damaged until you try to read data from a floppy.

MClk is called MT0 or MT1 (depending on upper or lower drive cable) on the Motherboard and I/O Board schematics. These are driven by U4F. If the motor spindle doesn't run when the FDC tries to read or write to the disk, then U4F would be the suspect. It could be that only the upper drive output is damaged, in which case you may never know until you plug in a set of Twiggies.

On the Lite Adapter, Phi A and MClk go into U6F, so it may be damaged.

(There is the possibility that the connection was made with a connector backwards / 180 degrees around, so the notes above are assuming the connection was made in the normal orientation, not backwards. If the ESProFile header is polarized, that might ensure this.)

And there is the possibility that a high current opened a trace somewhere (like blowing a fuse); I think this is unlikely for this situation, but you could look around for a scorched trace and check the continuity of any suspects.

Starting with those possibilities, you could replace them all or if you have some test equipment, do some troubleshooting (eg. watch each signal with a voltmeter or oscilloscope to see if there is any activity) to determine which ones are still ok.
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sigma7

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2025, 03:20:55 pm »

I forgot that the Lite Adapter connects RData to Sense, which goes to U3B on the I/O Board, so that's another potential victim.

Sense is used to read disk-in-place and write protect, while RData is for the actual data stream. These were unique signals for the Twiggy, but since the 3.5" drives combine them as one, the Lite Adapter ties them together.
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friedboard

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2025, 03:19:53 am »

Wow, thank you so much for such detailed analysis! I am going to purchase some replacements for these chips since luckily they look generic. Is there any chance that the damage could reach into the actually floppy disk controller?

Also, would it be easy to tell what the damages would be if they were plugged in the other way around (180 degrees) since I did try it with another board but that didn't destroy the esprofile. Thank you!!
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sigma7

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2025, 03:53:51 am »

I am going to purchase some replacements for these chips since luckily they look generic. Is there any chance that the damage could reach into the actually floppy disk controller?

Almost all the parts in the Lisa are generic, although some are so long out of production that they may be hard to find.

The FDC in the Lisa is made from discrete parts (aside from the IWM in the 2/10), so I'd say those components are actually parts of the floppy disk controller.

Yes, over-voltage damage can cascade through one part to another, and even from one part to the power supply rail to the whole machine. At some point you'll probably need to do some troubleshooting at the signal level, but replacing the parts obviously at risk may solve the problem. I suggest using sockets when replacing the chips.

Quote
would it be easy to tell what the damages would be if they were plugged in the other way around (180 degrees)

I think so; draw a diagram of how the signals line up between the Widget Header and the Twiggy Header and see if you come up with the same list that I did. Then do another diagram with one of the pinouts rotated and repeat.

However there are a limited number of signals involved; probing with a voltmeter or oscilloscope might be more informative.

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friedboard

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2025, 06:57:26 am »

Wait, just noticed that my IO board is a 820-4033-A with 3 large chips on the top left. Mine is a Macintosh XL board then?
I don't have some of the chips you mentioned above like the U5B
« Last Edit: August 08, 2025, 07:15:02 am by friedboard »
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sigma7

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2025, 11:35:49 am »

Wait, just noticed that my IO board is a 820-4033-A with 3 large chips on the top left. Mine is a Macintosh XL board then?

"Macintosh XL" is not sufficiently specific, since for a while, any Lisa running MacWorks was called an XL. The I/O Board with the 3 large chips is often referred to as the "2/10 I/O Board"

In which case, (edit: this issue only applies to 400K single sided drives:) a stock Lite Adapter is not going to work, as the 2/10 I/O Board incorporates its electronic functionality, but not the connector adaptation.

So back to this...

Quote
a self-consistent hardware configuration... ie. if you are trying to use a Lite Adapter, you should have a 2/5 I/O Board (two, not 3 large chips at the top left), a 2/5 Motherboard (with a rear panel parallel port), and 2/5 chassis wiring (two 26 pin ribbon cables in the drive cage area).

You have (double check and adjust if incorrect):

- a 2/10 I/O Board (with 3 large chips at the top left)
- a 2/5 chassis wiring harness, with 2 ribbon cables with 26 pin connectors in the drive cage (and no 20 pin connector ribbon cable)
- a Lite Adapter

Which motherboard do you have? Does it have 2 DB-25 connectors along the back or 3?

Does the Lite Adapter have any modifications to it (eg. wires added to the top or bottom)?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2025, 01:55:20 pm by sigma7 »
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friedboard

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2025, 06:57:00 pm »

- Correct, a 820-4033-A IO board but NOT the 820-4033-A2. Reading around I think this might be the Macintosh XL upgrade version for this board on the 2/5 that doesn't support a widget.
- a 2/5 chassis wiring harness, with 2 ribbon cables with 26 pin connectors in the drive cage (and no 20 pin connector ribbon cable)
- a stock lite adapter with no mods and wires
- Parallel, mouse, and 2 serial ports in the back
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sigma7

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2025, 01:02:34 am »

- Correct, a 820-4033-A IO board but NOT the 820-4033-A2. Reading around I think this might be the Macintosh XL upgrade version for this board on the 2/5 that doesn't support a widget.

I'm not familiar with this: "the Macintosh XL upgrade version for this board on the 2/5 that doesn't support a widget" ... can you point to your reference(s) about this?
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friedboard

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2025, 01:12:55 am »

Yeah, I think it was just an old reference from a message board. Not sure how true it is: https://classiccmp.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org/message/KETOQ33SNDARQS6WXYW766FULSTHSOVU/
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sigma7

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2025, 02:51:07 am »

Since this external posting from the typically very knowledgeable Eric Smith is bound to come up again someday, I'll try to clarify some of the potential confusion, without adding too much more confusion.

This is the referenced post:

https://classiccmp.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org/message/KETOQ33SNDARQS6WXYW766FULSTHSOVU/

Quote
Lisa I/O Card Question

eric@brouhaha.com
13 May 2000 12:28 p.m.
"Wayne M. Smith" writes:
...
  I have a Lisa 2/5 with H8 ROM which has the following I/O card, no. 820-4033-A:
 http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/_uimages/Lisa_IO_820-4033-A.jpg

This card works in a Lisa 1, Lisa 2 (no hard drive), and Lisa 2/5 (external profile).  It has support for two floppy drives, although that only works with Twiggy drives.  It does not support an internal hard drive.
...
  Some time ago I came across a different I/O card, no. 820-4033-A2:
 http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/_uimages/Lisa_IO_820-4033-A2.jpg

That card works in a Lisa 2/10 or Macintosh XL.  It supports one 400K 3.5 inch drive (or 800K with Sun Remarketing's modified firmware), and one internal Widget hard drive.

The two cards are not interchangeable.  The Lisa 2/10 and Macintosh XL use a different backplane.  IIRC, the connectors are offset so that the old I/O card will only plug into the old backplane, and the new I/O card into the new backplane.  But even if I'm mistaken about that, I'm rather more certain that the cards aren't electrically interchangeable, since I've been looking at the schematics just recently.

Among other differences, the floppy drive motor speed control is done differently.  The old I/O card was designed to serially shift the motor speed control byte into the disk drive; when they upgraded to the 400K 3.5 inch drives, they had to add a "Lisa Lite" adapter card to convert the serial bits into a PWM signal.  The new I/O card generates PWM on the card.

The old I/O card had a socket for an AMD 9511 (or 9512) math coprocessor, which was never used by any production Lisa (or Macintosh) software.

The new I/O card instead has a footprint (but usually not a socket) for a Western Digital WD2001 DES crypto chip, which also was never used by any production Lisa or Macintosh software.

There are other minor differences between the two cards; I haven't bothered to track them all down.

Eric

The two varieties of the I/O Board are very much the same overall, except for the differences noted and the NiCd Battery and charger (1/5), missing on the 2/10 board (and ultimately removed from 1/5 boards due to leaking and corrosion).

The boards have the same shape and are mostly drop-in interchangeable in function. However there is a significant difference in the floppy drive circuitry, so simply swapping the boards will break floppy functionality (edit: this issue only applies to 400K single sided drives). If you don't try to connect / use the floppy in a mixed 1/5/2/10 Lisa, both I/O Boards will work.

Both varieties have nearly identical parallel ports, both supporting both ProFile and Widget drives. It is the variety of Motherboard that routes the parallel port either to the back panel or the internal cabling. A Widget can be installed in an external case with power supply and connected to the back panel parallel port normally used for a ProFile. A ProFile (or emulator) can be connected to the 2/10's parallel port cable in the drive cage originally intended for a Widget. The I/O Board doesn't know or care.

Since the internal chassis cabling is different for the 2/10 (with internal parallel port and 20 pin floppy cable) vs the 1/5 (with no internal parallel port and two 26 pin floppy cables), the two motherboard varieties have slightly different chassis card edge connector arrangements. However they are not sufficiently different to prevent connecting a motherboard to the wrong kind of chassis cabling.

So it is the Motherboard that determines whether a 26 pin cable in the drive cage is a parallel port or not... if the motherboard has a rear panel parallel port, then no internal cable is a parallel port. If the motherboard does not have a rear panel parallel port, then an internal cable is a parallel port. This is the case regardless of which I/O Board is installed.

Floppy drive support is the complication. The (edit: 400K single sided) 3.5" floppies require PWM for the motor speed control. The 2/10 I/O Board includes this, but the 1/5 board does not, so the 1/5 board requires the Lite Adapter. In addition, the 3.5" floppy drives have a 20 pin connector, so the Lite Adapter converts the 26 pin Twiggy cable to the 20 pin used by the 3.5" drive.

The final result is that an inconsistent/mixed set of 1/5 vs 2/10 boards and cables requires special attention and (edit: in the case of a 400K single sided drive) modifications for the floppy drive to work, and damage can occur if connected incorrectly, so it is best to avoid these unusual combinations if possible.

edit: grammar
« Last Edit: August 18, 2025, 01:59:34 pm by sigma7 »
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sigma7

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Re: Will the Lisa return an IO error without the "Lite" Interface Card
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2025, 03:10:23 am »

Quote
- a 2/10 IO board (3 large chips at the top left)
- a 2/5 chassis wiring harness, having 2 ribbon cables with 26 pin connectors in the drive cage (and no 20 pin connector ribbon cable)
- a stock lite adapter with no mods and wires
- a 2/5 Motherboard with Parallel, mouse, and 2 serial ports in the back

This combination will not result in a working floppy drive.

Edit: This combination does seem to work with 800K double sided Sony drives and the FloppyEmu (and likely other floppy emulators)



However, this combination does not work with 400K single sided Sony drives
Solutions:
1) Replace the 2/10 I/O Board with a 2/5 variety,
or
2) Replace the motherboard with a 2/10 variety, replace or modify the chassis ribbon cable so you have a 26 pin and a 20 pin cable, and remove the Lite Adapter,
or
3) Replace the Lite Adapter with a 26 to 20 pin adapter to suit the change in floppy wiring without adding any electronics such as are on the Lite Adapter,
or
4) Modify the Lite Adapter to work as explained in the LisaFAQ entry below (not recommended if you want to preserve the original components of the Lisa for collector purposes)

More info:
LisaFAQ: 3.8.3. Will a Lisa 2/10 I/O board work in a Lisa 2/5?
Topic: LISA card compatibility and interchangeable scenarios?

Once you come up with a configuration that can be made to work, then we can get back to investigating and repairing whatever damage might have occurred.

edit: corrected that only 400K floppy drive function is impeded
« Last Edit: August 18, 2025, 02:09:36 pm by sigma7 »
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