LisaList2

Advanced search  

News:

2019.06.07 fixed NChat for the "Curve" theme, will eventually move it to its own page and add it to the default theme as well. Other plugins are next. see post in the Meta board for details

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Restoration of a Lisa 1  (Read 1349 times)

snuci

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2020, 01:22:57 pm »

The disk image is a BLU disk image, and so the easiest way to write it to a disk (including your X/ProFile) will be with BLU over a serial cable. I am not sure, but you may need to modify the image in order to put it on an X/ProFile directly.

Okay, I have a BLU disk and I need for reformat a Proile hard drive anyway.  Let's see what I can figure out.  I just have to relearn stuff I haven't done in a few years now :)  BLU was a life saver back then.

Thanks Tom. 
Logged

snuci

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2020, 01:54:53 pm »

I figured I would try a couple of Profiles to see what I had.  This was in the lot with this Lisa 1 (it came with 2 Profiles).  Oddly enough, this booted with Macworks + 1.0.1.8...

Clearly the Twiggy's won't work but that was wierd.  I am looking at the other Profile to see if I can fix it.  The stepper motor only moves a couple positions (it is free to move) and will not complete the self-test.
Logged

stepleton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +28/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 57
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2020, 02:30:27 pm »

Ha, I've never tried that one before. You sure don't see that every day.

MacWorks is said to boot from the Monitor, a kind of Apple-internal operating system that didn't see general-purpose use, but that was also the OS underlying the LisaGuide tutorial disks. Once you make some Twiggy diskettes, you'll be able to boot the various Apple-internal Twiggy versions from Bitsavers for yourself. They're not much to look at, but they are historic, I suppose.
Logged

snuci

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2020, 02:43:07 pm »

The second Profile had a RIFA filter cap blow up so other than it stinking in here, I do have LOS 2.0 on my X/Profile already.  Would that work with Twiggy's?
Logged

stepleton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +28/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 57
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2020, 03:18:01 pm »

A very dim memory suggests maybe not? But it's probably worth a shot. I've never really used Office System 2.0.

One thing you could do is use BLU to backup one of your X/ProFile disks over the serial port, then upload my disk image via BLU onto that X/ProFile disk (overwriting what you've backed up), and finally, when you're done and you want to go back to the original setup, restore your backed-up disk image using BLU once more.

Commiseration about the RIFA---I know that stink---once it even inspired me to make a T-shirt...
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 03:26:02 pm by stepleton »
Logged

rayarachelian

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Karma: +11/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 239
  • "But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game"
    • LisaEm
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2020, 04:50:54 pm »

Stare upon the eviiiil capacitor that Tom turned into a t-shirt. (and yes, I do want one!)
Logged
Fate whispers to the warrior, 'You can not withstand the storm.'  The warrior whispers back, 'I am the storm.'

snuci

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2020, 06:45:36 pm »

Well, it seems I can't get my Lisa serial port 2 to work so I can transfer the LOS 1.0  image to my X/Profile via BLU.  I will have to try another motherboard/card set tomorrow.  Gotta take apart another Lisa 2 for this.  Onward and upward tomorrow.
Logged

stepleton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +28/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 57
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2020, 07:33:45 pm »

If it's not one thing, it's another!

This might be easier: run BLU on one of your Lisa 2s and use that to do all of the hard drive image management. Then just move the hard drive (or X/ProFile) back and forth between the "BLU computer" and the Lisa 1.

I also had a problem on my Lisa 2/10 where serial port 2 stopped working. The good people of LisaList helped me find the chip on the I/O board that went bad, and ever since the replacement things have been fine. Something to fix for later :)
Logged

blusnowkitty

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2020, 08:53:58 pm »

One thing you could do is use BLU to backup one of your X/ProFile disks over the serial port, then upload my disk image via BLU onto that X/ProFile disk (overwriting what you've backed up), and finally, when you're done and you want to go back to the original setup, restore your backed-up disk image using BLU once more.

For what it's worth, if you have a machine running Linux or macOS and a CF reader, you can also make backup copies by using dd. Probably much less hassle to dd to a disk image over USB than it is to wait for a serial connection to go through.

I feel you on the Rifa caps - I had both my Mac 128 and 512ke going once and both Rifas blew together. That was not fun.
Logged

stepleton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +28/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 57
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2020, 09:17:48 pm »

The problem there is that it may be a delicate operation to put the disk image into the right place on your X/ProFile CF card without disturbing the other disk images it holds.

Additionally, I think the "raw" format of X/ProFile data may differ somewhat substantially to the format of BLU disk images. I'm hazy on the details---basing what I say here on a browse through the X/ProFile manual quite a while ago. I seem to remember that there are several possible image formats called STARs, each optimised for different kinds of underlying media, including IDE hard drives and so forth. These formats organise the data in different ways, partly to accommodate the fact that ProFile blocks are 532 bytes, not 512 bytes.

If you do decide to explore this route, in any case, I think you will need to remove the first 532-byte block from my Lisa 1 BLU disk image in order to obtain a "raw" image file suitable for use with dd.

There is at least one ProFile emulator out there that uses contiguous, raw disk image files on an ordinary FAT filesystem---but it's not very popular, was made by an amateur, and requires a bit of fine surface-mount soldering ;D
Logged

blusnowkitty

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2020, 09:44:38 pm »

The problem there is that it may be a delicate operation to put the disk image into the right place on your X/ProFile CF card without disturbing the other disk images it holds.

Additionally, I think the "raw" format of X/ProFile data may differ somewhat substantially to the format of BLU disk images. I'm hazy on the details---basing what I say here on a browse through the X/ProFile manual quite a while ago. I seem to remember that there are several possible image formats called STARs, each optimised for different kinds of underlying media, including IDE hard drives and so forth. These formats organise the data in different ways, partly to accommodate the fact that ProFile blocks are 532 bytes, not 512 bytes.

If you do decide to explore this route, in any case, I think you will need to remove the first 532-byte block from my Lisa 1 BLU disk image in order to obtain a "raw" image file suitable for use with dd.

There is at least one ProFile emulator out there that uses contiguous, raw disk image files on an ordinary FAT filesystem---but it's not very popular, was made by an amateur, and requires a bit of fine surface-mount soldering ;D

Ah, there is that. I have a ton of CF cards so I don't  bother with multiple images on one card. Just a straight dd off the card and back onto another works with me without issues.
Logged

snuci

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2020, 05:37:11 pm »

Lisa Office 2.0 won't work with the Lisa 1.  Here is an excerpt of a document I have:

CONVERSION TO THE LISA 2

By the time this is published most owners of the original Lisa will have converted to the Lisa
2. There are three parts to the conversion process: getting all you files ready to be
converted, making the actual hardware modifications, and updating to the new system
software.

The most troublesome (and potentially risky) part of the conversion is getting all your files
on the Profile drive before converting the hardware. This is necessary because the new
system does not have any software drivers for the old 51/4-inch disks drives
. If you convert
and then find some files you forgot, there is no easy way to recover them. For everyone
except developers the hardware conversion is done by a dealer. (Developers are given the
kit to make the conversion themselves.) It involves swapping the old 51/4-inch Apple
drives for the new 31/2-inch Sony drive, swapping some integrated-circuit chips, and
cutting one or two resistors off a board. In my case, the conversion went very smoothly.

The last step is to update the Profile drive with the new system software. All Lisa 2
conversion kits contain release 2.0 of the Lisa software system, which involve modifications
down at the disk-directory level. When you update the drive, all the file-formatting changes
are made at the same time, although users are not really aware that this is happening.
Once you have converted, you are unable to do a disk-to-disk; you must go through the
Profile drive as an intermediate step
Logged

snuci

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2020, 11:23:58 am »

Figured I would post this here for my Lisa.

My Lisa has a weird date code and an early serial number.  Since it doesn't have a serial number tag, I had to get it from Service mode.  Someone has told me it may be a pre-production model but if not, it is definitely early.

240: FF 02 82 020 0166 0 FF

Plant=02  YY = 82   DDD = 020   Serial = 0166

250: 0010017504100000

AppleNET  Prefix=001   Number=00175


Update:  I have BLU on a CF card for Blu so I am just working on making a 3d printed template for Twiggy floppies now.
Logged

snuci

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Karma: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2020, 06:12:34 pm »

Well,  I am getting there.

I went through five Profiles.  Two just shut down and stopped powering up (will have to look at those), one had RIFA fireworks and a smoke show, one just wouldn't complete a low-level-format with BLU and finally got one working.

I went through four keyboards.  Two were refoamed and I still don't have a properly closed working keyboard.  For now I just use my finger on the PCB. That will need some attention.

I went through several IO, CPU and memory boards along with card ages and parallel cards.  I thought my Serial B was not working but it turned out to be my serial cable.  Went through two serial cables and three gender changers to mate with the Serial B port.

Anyway, I now have a working booting LISA 1.0 system thanks to @stepleton and his BLU Profile image.  Thank you!  Sadly, I can't run any application because it is "not licensed" for my computer but I can deal with that later.  Picture attached.

My next adventure if is to test the Twiggy drives and I am in the process of 3D printing a template to make some floppies.  Once I have some floppies, I'll see what happens with the drives and I'll see if I can create Lisa OS 1.0 Twiggy floppies to try to do an installation (if I ever get that far).  Frustrating but will definitely pay off if I can get her going properly.

Thanks for the help and encouragement so far.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 06:18:43 pm by snuci »
Logged

stepleton

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Karma: +28/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 57
Re: Restoration of a Lisa 1
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2020, 07:13:09 pm »

Congratulations!

As a check, just after booting, do you hear the Twiggy drives "grunt" as they activate the ejection mechanism in either drive? At least, this is what happens on my Lisa 1. The ejection mechanism is also activated when I shut the Lisa back down.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up