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[snuci]

Hi All,

I am a fairly experienced Lisa owner.  I have several variations including two 2/5s and three 2/10s with enough drives to cover most configurations including a Widget drive, 5 MB Profile, 10 MB Profile, 20 MB SunRem and X-Profile.  I recently got a hold of a Lisa 1 with Twiggy drives that still had the batteries in it   The motherboard and I/O boards are in the process of being restored (just got my replacement card edge connectors today).   In the meantime, I am using parts from other units to get it running. 

I don't have any Twiggy disks so I haven't gotten that far yet but I have bought some HD floppies so I will try to make some.  If someone has a template, I would appreciate it.  Up to this morning, I was getting an Error 48 when trying to boot from one of two Profiles that were in the lot.  The second Profile has an issue with power on self test as it basically doesn't do it and the stepper motor doesn't move like normal.  The needs some attention too.  My ROMs are 341-0175/341-0176 Rev B and I have confirmed they are okay.

My latest update is using one of my existing 5MB Profiles to boot but it gets part way and hangs.  I may have MacWorks Plus on it so I'll have to check that.  Anyway, thought I'd post about the progress. 

stepleton contacted me through Facebook where I have posted pictures.  His explanation of Error 48 (Illegal Instruction error) had me down the trail of CPU or memory board issue as is stated in one of the guides but I could be trying to boot from a data Profile which makes total sense.  I don't know what is on either of the Profiles. 

Anyway, glad to be here and I hope it ends up in a working Lisa 1.  I'll post as I progress through this.  I would like to have the original motherboard and IO board in the computer but I need to figure out how to make some Twiggy floppies first.

[rayarachelian]

There's a hires (relatively) image here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/disk/twiggy/photos/3M_Fileware.jpg
you can print it out and cut it. You can then use it as a template. The square notches should be easy to cut with scissors.

You'll need some way to open the jacket, remove the cookie without damaging it or touching it (or wear gloves), and cut the 2nd set of oval windows in the jacket. They should be the same size as the normal ones, just on the other end. And you'll want blank disks without labels on them.

I'd guess an xacto knife would work well, but perhaps you can build something by bending sharpening a can of tuna with a whetstone and then use pliers to bend the shape of the window and then pressing down hard.

You can probably still buy them from here: https://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html not sure if you'll need HD or DSDD, I'd try with both and see which work better. Maybe degauss them before you format them if they're PC formatted.

You should be able to restore the disks with BLU, likely you'll need to install BLU to a hard drive first, and then use it to transfer twiggy images to restore.

[snuci]

There's a hires (relatively) image here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/disk/twiggy/photos/3M_Fileware.jpg
you can print it out and cut it. You can then use it as a template. The square notches should be easy to cut with scissors.

Thanks Ray.  That is helpful.  I'll give it a shot.  I have some floppies I've ordered but I may be able to find a spare 5.25" HD diskette somewhere. 

I will also use my X/Profile and make a BLU hard drive image and see how that works out.  Have to take apart another Lisa for that. 

Santo 

[stepleton]

Attached is an image of my measurements of the various "extra" notches on an Apple-branded FileWare diskette (original image from Wikipedia). I don't think sub-millimetre accuracy is required, but I've added it all the same. Otherwise, using another 5.25" disk as a stencil for cutting the second read/write head window is the way to go.

If you have a working Twiggy drive+disk, I wouldn't think it necessary to install to a hard drive---you can write the serial-bootstrapped BLU directly to the floppy and then boot from that in future, reading and writing hard drive images over the serial port all the while. At least, that's how I like to do it :-)

One thing I might be careful of is to make sure that the sense hole next to the spindle hole determines where you cut these extra notches.

[snuci]

Attached is an image of my measurements of the various "extra" notches on an Apple-branded FileWare diskette (original image from Wikipedia). I don't think sub-millimetre accuracy is required, but I've added it all the same. Otherwise, using another 5.25" disk as a stencil for cutting the second read/write head window is the way to go.

Thank you.  Those measurements help a lot.  I was thinking about creating and 3d printing a template but let's see where I get.  I am still working during these times so I don't have as much time as many others seem to and I am okay with that.

If you have a working Twiggy drive+disk, I wouldn't think it necessary to install to a hard drive---you can write the serial-bootstrapped BLU directly to the floppy and then boot from that in future, reading and writing hard drive images over the serial port all the while. At least, that's how I like to do it :-)

One thing I might be careful of is to make sure that the sense hole next to the spindle hole determines where you cut these extra notches.

Sounds better than taking apart another Lisa.  I'll try the serial method first.

Thank you!

[blusnowkitty]

Wow, awesome find regardless. I hope I can one day get a Lisa 1

If it's not against the rules to ask, would you be able to dump the boot ROM and the I/O ROM? I don't think ROM B exists anywhere online and it would be great to preserve it.

[rayarachelian]

Wow, awesome find regardless. I hope I can one day get a Lisa 1

If it's not against the rules to ask, would you be able to dump the boot ROM and the I/O ROM? I don't think ROM B exists anywhere online and it would be great to preserve it.

Nope, not against the rules, but it is all boot ROM versions are available on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/firmware/
http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/firmware/341-0175-B.BIN and http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/firmware/341-0176-B.BIN

That said, you're better off with version "D" for Lisa 1's and "H" for Lisa 2's as they fix bugs.  D is actually compatible with both 1s and 2s. I couldn't tell you exactly what bugs, but if you really care you can read the source code for H and see the changes between B and C,D to see what was fixed, you can find that here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/firmware/

What I don't see are the I/O ROM version 40 (for twiggies), A8 (88 and its source is up there), and the hacked SunRem version that allows 800K double sided floppies. There's apparently a Lisa driver for the double sided floppy up on macintosh garden: https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/lisa-office-system-800k-driver

[blusnowkitty]

Nope, not against the rules, but it is all boot ROM versions are available on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/firmware/
http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/firmware/341-0175-B.BIN and http://bitsavers.org/bits/Apple/Lisa/firmware/341-0176-B.BIN

That said, you're better off with version "D" for Lisa 1's and "H" for Lisa 2's as they fix bugs.  D is actually compatible with both 1s and 2s. I couldn't tell you exactly what bugs, but if you really care you can read the source code for H and see the changes between B and C,D to see what was fixed, you can find that here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/firmware/

Hey thanks for that! Somehow I never found that link when I was searching for ROMs for mine.

[snuci]

What I don't see are the I/O ROM version 40 (for twiggies), A8 (88 and its source is up there), and the hacked SunRem version that allows 800K double sided floppies. There's apparently a Lisa driver for the double sided floppy up on macintosh garden: https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/lisa-office-system-800k-driver

My ROMs are here:  http://www.vintagecomputer.ca/files/Apple/Lisa/firmware/Lisa1/

The I/O ROM is marked 341-0138 Rev F 

[patrick]

You can probably still buy them from here: https://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html not sure if you'll need HD or DSDD, I'd try with both and see which work better. Maybe degauss them before you format them if they're PC formatted.

Twiggy disks have 46 tracks per side (62.5 tpi). Data density is around 9.500 FTPI with a rotational speed  of 218 rpm at the outer tracks and 320 rpm at the inner tracks. This gives you 22 blocks at the outside and 15 blocks at the center of the disk. Nominal coercitivity is 600 oe (24 kA/m), this is "HD" media.

If you hold the disc against a light source and the light shines through weakly, it is HD. SD/DD material is deep black.



BTW: keep in mind that if you replace the I/O board with one from a Lisa 2/5 a pulldown resistor has to be added to the SNS line (R47 = 1 kOhm).

[snuci]

Latest update:  I have all boards running and am able to start booting from a Profile with Lisa 7/7/ version 3.1 on it.  I know it works because I tried on another Lisa.  Whether I have the Twiggy floppies in or not, I get the following error.  Time o do a little more investigation.  I have not come across the 10738 error before. 

[stepleton]

Per PDF page 182 of http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/workshop_3.0/Lisa_Pascal_3.0_System_Software_1984.pdf, that's "Can't find a required driver for the boot device."

I don't know, but I suspect 7/7 is not happy with your Twiggy drives or ROM version. I don't think 7/7 is meant to run on a Lisa 1. Can you copy this image to your ProFile and boot it? (It's an Office System 1.0 install from my Lisa 1.)

None of the tools will run thanks to serialisation, but it should boot on your computer, I think.

[snuci]

Per PDF page 182 of http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/lisa/workshop_3.0/Lisa_Pascal_3.0_System_Software_1984.pdf, that's "Can't find a required driver for the boot device."

I don't know, but I suspect 7/7 is not happy with your Twiggy drives or ROM version. I don't think 7/7 is meant to run on a Lisa 1. Can you copy this image to your ProFile and boot it? (It's an Office System 1.0 install from my Lisa 1.)

None of the tools will run thanks to serialisation, but it should boot on your computer, I think.

Thanks, I will try this.  I was wondering if all versions of Lisa Office would work. I just write this to a Cpact flash and use my X-Profile, I guess?  I just have to look for my compact flash writer now.

[rayarachelian]

10738 isn't listed here: https://lisafaq.sunder.net/single.html#lisafaq-sw-los_error_codes but errors near it indicate one of the OS files is unreadable.
Not very helpful, I know.

Don't worry about serialization, there's ways to remove that with a disk editor.

[stepleton]

Thanks, I will try this.  I was wondering if all versions of Lisa Office would work. I just write this to a Cpact flash and use my X-Profile, I guess?  I just have to look for my compact flash writer now.

The disk image is a BLU disk image, and so the easiest way to write it to a disk (including your X/ProFile) will be with BLU over a serial cable. I am not sure, but you may need to modify the image in order to put it on an X/ProFile directly.