In the MW readme it mentions upgrading the ESCC for better LocalTalk performance.
I have a Vintage Macros PFG daugherboard installed, Does this have the better ESCC?
I plan on using localTalk so can someone please educate me on this process?
Thanks!!!
The MW+II PFG does not come with an ESCC. Normally you remove the SCC from your IO board and install it on the PFG, then install the PFG in the SCC socket.
Initially, replacing the SCC with an ESCC was required if you are running System 7.5 with MW+II. This requirement was removed in later revisions.
Over the years I have done much experimenting with the ESCC, and for me on my systems and network I did not see much benefit using the ESCC over the stock SCC, and is some cases the performance I had observed was worse using the ESCC.
Your mileage may vary.
If someone here wants a ESCC chip, I will trade a working ESCC for a working Intel 8087 FPU. PM Me.
RicK
Thanks!
Is that the FPU that the XLerator uses?
Is the ESCC Lisa specific or off the shelf?
Quote from: bmwcyclist on October 07, 2025, 04:42:20 PM
Is that the FPU that the XLerator uses?
Is the ESCC Lisa specific or off the shelf?
The FPU used by the original 16 MHz XLerator is the MC68881RC16 or MC68882RC16. These are currently available as new-old-stock from Rochester electronics https://www.rocelec.com (https://www.rocelec.com)
Note that the FPU
DOES NOT improve XLerator performance except in very specific circumstances, so they are generally not worth the price.
The 85230 ESCC in the DIP package is a generic part (not Lisa specific).
The 85230 ESCC differs from the 8530 SCC in mostly subtle ways; the feature that can make a difference in a performance-limited situation (such as a stock Lisa) is that the FIFO buffer is 5 characters vs 3 characters.
The peer-to-peer file server feature that arrived in System 7 requires more performance than the LocalTalk client. With the stock SCC, a 5 MHz Lisa does not have sufficient performance to be a LocalTalk file server (but can act as a client as it does with System 6).
When developing MW+II it seemed that the ESCC helped to improve the reliability of LocalTalk in a stock Lisa, hence the mention in the documentation.
However, from out-in-the-wild reports in the years since then, it isn't clear in what circumstances the ESCC affects LocalTalk -- the suspicion is that it is dependent on the specific devices on the network.
The most dramatic improvement in LocalTalk comes from better CPU performance, eg. an XLerator (or perhaps one day an FPGA-Lisa). With an accelerator, it appears the SCC is always sufficient.
Note that the E/SCC does not affect the use of Ethernet, which is often a better method of networking under MW+II.
Quote from: bmwcyclist on October 07, 2025, 04:42:20 PM
Is that the FPU that the XLerator uses?
Is the ESCC Lisa specific or off the shelf?
No, the 8087 FPU is for a IBM PC. ::)
Agan, If someone here wants a ESCC chip, I will trade a working ESCC for a working Intel 8087 FPU.
PM Me.
Rick
Quote from: sigma7 on October 07, 2025, 06:27:47 PM
Note that the E/SCC does not affect the use of Ethernet, which is often a better method of networking under MW+II.
How would you connect lisa to Ethernet?
Other than a wireless connection through blue SCSI or serial local talk connection I haven't seen anything.
Quote from: bmwcyclist on October 07, 2025, 10:49:30 PM
Quote from: sigma7 on October 07, 2025, 06:27:47 PM
Note that the E/SCC does not affect the use of Ethernet, which is often a better method of networking under MW+II.
How would you connect lisa to Ethernet?
Other than a wireless connection through blue SCSI or serial local talk connection I haven't seen anything.
There are a few SCSI Ethernet adapters that work, namely:
- Asante Mini EN/SC (ethernet adapter)
- Farallon EtherMac (ethernet adapter)
- DaynaPORT SCSI/Link-T (ethernet adapter)
Are they serial port to SCSI?
No, they work through the SCSI port provided by your XLerator or Sun SCSI card.
I want to "connect the dots", even though the name of this thread has nothing to do with this :)
The "wireless connection through blue SCSI" that bmwcyclist currently uses to get on the internet is basically some software on the BlueSCSI card that emulates a DynaPort SCSI Ethernet adapter (along with emulating a SCSI hard drive): https://bluescsi.com/docs/WiFi-DaynaPORT
AFAIK, this is the easiest way to get old MACs and Lisa-s on the internets (along with PiSCSI, which is very similar to BlueSCSI).
The original DynaPort SCSI Ethernet adapter came in few different configurations: some had a BNC connector to connect to a 10Base2 local ethernet network (and from there to the internet), others had an RJ45 jack for the same.
Quote from: TorZidan on October 13, 2025, 06:06:12 PM
The "wireless connection through blue SCSI" that bmwcyclist currently uses to get on the internet is basically some software on the BlueSCSI card that emulates a DynaPort SCSI Ethernet adapter (along with emulating a SCSI hard drive): https://bluescsi.com/docs/WiFi-DaynaPORT
AFAIK, this is the easiest way to get old MACs and Lisa-s on the internets (along with PiSCSI, which is very similar to BlueSCSI).
I disagree. The BlueSCSI card's SCSI Ethernet emulation is handicapped by it's WiFi connection. Here is why:
Appletalk over Ethernet uses a different Ethernet frame type than common modern TCP/IP over Ethernet does. Most WiFi routers don't pass this frame type, so unless you have the right router, Appletalk data goes nowhere.
Using MacTCP you can directly connect to a TCP/IP network, but many MacTCP compatible applications require System 6.08 or better and that requires you run MW+II. For MW+II you will likely need more RAM and possibly an XLerator.
Rick
Quote from: Lisa2 on October 14, 2025, 11:24:27 AM
Quote from: TorZidan on October 13, 2025, 06:06:12 PM
The "wireless connection through blue SCSI" that bmwcyclist currently uses to get on the internet is basically some software on the BlueSCSI card that emulates a DynaPort SCSI Ethernet adapter (along with emulating a SCSI hard drive): https://bluescsi.com/docs/WiFi-DaynaPORT
AFAIK, this is the easiest way to get old MACs and Lisa-s on the internets (along with PiSCSI, which is very similar to BlueSCSI).
I disagree. The BlueSCSI card's SCSI Ethernet emulation is handicapped by it's WiFi connection. Here is why:
Appletalk over Ethernet uses a different Ethernet frame type than common modern TCP/IP over Ethernet does. Most WiFi routers don't pass this frame type, so unless you have the right router, Appletalk data goes nowhere.
Using MacTCP you can directly connect to a TCP/IP network, but many MacTCP compatible applications require System 6.08 or better and that requires you run MW+II. For MW+II you will likely need more RAM and possibly an XLerator.
Rick
Interesting!
I hope to be playing with a number of these options soon.
I just purchased a SCSI-Ethernet (Asanti) adapter off of ebay, I have 2 BlueSCSI v2 units with wifi and I am also awaiting a serial to localtalk cable (vintage Lisa) from ebay, as well as 2 Raspberry Pi v4's to run as "routers".
(I was trying to hold out for some Gatorboxes but none have shown up for sale, I would love to see if I can setup a site to site link/tunnel with them)
One thing I have found as frustrating, and this is not limited to old Mac stuff, is that the terms bridge, router, and gateway (as in protocol translation, not as in 'default gateway'/'default router', which is a legacy term for gateway) are so often misused. I always need to locate the documentation and hope it clarifies which OSI layer the device operates on. Don't mind me, though, I still get agitated when someone says 'cable modem' and I have to bite my tongue to keep from asking "exactly where is the modulation-demodulation happening?
Quote from: Lisa2 on October 14, 2025, 11:24:27 AM
Quote from: TorZidan on October 13, 2025, 06:06:12 PM
The "wireless connection through blue SCSI" that bmwcyclist currently uses to get on the internet is basically some software on the BlueSCSI card that emulates a DynaPort SCSI Ethernet adapter (along with emulating a SCSI hard drive): https://bluescsi.com/docs/WiFi-DaynaPORT
AFAIK, this is the easiest way to get old MACs and Lisa-s on the internets (along with PiSCSI, which is very similar to BlueSCSI).
I disagree.
Rick, are you saying that there is an easier way (than using a BlueSCSI) to get a vintage Mac or a Lisa on the Internet? Please give us more details : what is the extra hardware and software needed?
Quote from: TorZidan on October 14, 2025, 12:17:05 PM
Quote from: Lisa2 on October 14, 2025, 11:24:27 AM
Quote from: TorZidan on October 13, 2025, 06:06:12 PM
The "wireless connection through blue SCSI" that bmwcyclist currently uses to get on the internet is basically some software on the BlueSCSI card that emulates a DynaPort SCSI Ethernet adapter (along with emulating a SCSI hard drive): https://bluescsi.com/docs/WiFi-DaynaPORT
AFAIK, this is the easiest way to get old MACs and Lisa-s on the internets (along with PiSCSI, which is very similar to BlueSCSI).
I disagree.
Rick, are you saying that there is an easier way (than using a BlueSCSI) to get a vintage Mac or a Lisa on the Internet? Please give us more details : what is the extra hardware and software needed?
I don't intend to answer for Rick.
I do want to clarify a few things.
I think there is a difference between "getting on the internet" and doing some of the more useful things on the internet. Using my Lisa under MW and 2 megabytes of RAM, about all I can do is use terminal software and ping. Using my XLerator card and 4 megs of RAM, I can (just barely) use an early browser (Mac Web) and some remote access software.
So far, I have achieved all of this with a BlueSCSI through an XLerator or Sun SCSI card.
I hope to now start trying to encapsulate AppleTalk through IP networks and connect to a remote Mac at my friend's house to play RoboSport.
So you might have seen my post in the troubleshooting section.
I received my Asante' SCSI to Ethernet adapter yesterday.
Despite receiving an indication on the box that it was connected to my network and was seeing activity, my Lisa, running Mac OS 7.1, was unable to connect to the network. The extension loaded fine; the SCSI probe detects "something" on SCSI ID 2, but the troubleshooting app crashes, and I have no connectivity.
I was really hoping to have a solution that would work with a non-XLerated LISA. I am going to test the unit on a Mac in the next couple of days to try to rule out an issue with the Asante' hardware.
If anyone has this in a working config, any tips and or a drive image would be appreciated. Thanks!
A few more notes:
Apple fool network page says that "early" AirPort routers will handle AARP frames correctly.
In attempt to determine specifically which AirPort routers are "early" I checked 68kMLA and could not find any list of AARP compatible routers.
In response to my query I was told ALL AirPORT routers handled AARP , but my request for a packet capture confirmation was not replied to.
So...
Today I brought a newer model AirPort from FB market place and have a saved search to try to locate an early model.
Thinking the test should be easy I then realized I am not at work and my cheap home switch likely does not have port mirroring. I am down like 5 rabbit holes on this project right now but at least I am not recompiling the Lisa os ;)
My Lisa DB25 LocalTalk cable arrived today but oddly it has a male DIN3 so now I have to find a female to female adapter. What burns my butt is I am sure I threw away dozens of these things years ago.... And now I have to rebuy them from eBay.
Quote from: bmwcyclist on October 17, 2025, 04:58:28 PM
My Lisa DB25 LocalTalk cable arrived today but oddly it has a male DIN3
That's... weird. The bus uses the 3 pin connectors, but not the drops.
There is supposed to be a transformer between the bus and the drop to the computer, does the cable have a box in the middle of it?
edit: if you have only two devices on LocalTalk, you can wire them directly as RS-422 serial devices rather than using the LocalTalk transformer cabling.
Here's what I have
Hmmm, dunno what that cable is; you may need to map each pin's connections as it could be anything.
By "DIN3" I thought you meant the 3 pin Mini-DIN as used by Apple for connecting individual LocalTalk boxes to one-another.
I learned about the cable here:
https://lisafaq.sunder.net/lisafaq-hw-ser_appletalk.html
Good idea I should sound it out to make sure it's legit.